ATP: Billy Pate, head men’s tennis coach at Princeton University

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We want to have a conversation as long as it starts with tennis.

Hey, hey, this is Sean with the Atlanta tennis podcast, powered by Go-Tennis.

In this episode, we talk to Billy Pate, who is the head men's tennis coach at Princeton

University.

We talk about his friendship with Bobby, the Atlanta Thunder, world team tennis, the state

of college athletics, and more.

Have a listen and let us know what you think.

So, I'm going to do a nice simple introduction of Billy Pate.

You are the head coach, head men's coach at Princeton University for tennis.

That is as much as I know.

What I want to do is say, Billy, will you introduce yourself and I'm going to let you and

Bobby talk for a while.

Yeah, great.

Well, hey, I really appreciate you guys having me on and Sean is to meet you and Bobby, obviously

it's great to catch you out after a few years here and good to see you.

But I'm in my 11th year at Princeton as the men's coach, I've been coaching college tennis

at a paint fair.

Gosh, about 28, 29 years.

So I'm getting to be one of the older guys.

I used to be one of the younger guys in the business, but now I'm thinking one of the senior

guys, but anyways, it's been a fun ride.

And I just appreciate you guys having me on and anxious to talk to you and see what we can

uncover here.

Well, Bill, it's great seeing you too.

It's funny.

Sean, we always prepare questions for everybody.

You were caught in after preparing some questions for us.

And I told Sean, I said, I have to make this a little bit personal just because the shocking

as you mentioned a couple of minutes ago, we've known each other more than 30 years now.

It's a long time.

And I tell everybody, and I don't know, if I ever told you, I just remember meeting you.

I started, I think, a quarter before you.

We were in grad school together, Georgia State.

I think I started the quarter before you.

We were in some summer class.

I believe that's when you began.

And I noticed this, we're having a group discussion and this, the chair coming closer and closer

to me.

And I look over and I see this person.

And I said, after you said about five words, I said, oh my God, this is somebody I'm going

to know for the rest of my life.

And the impact when you get right to it, you sit there and say, I don't want this to be

about me, but I got to share this.

Billy essentially has shaped my life.

You can sit there and say, you know, people have had an impact.

Yes, I went to grad school.

I want we wanted to be in the sports side of business.

But Billy got me playing tennis again.

Billy got me my first job in tennis.

Through Billy, we met, you know, had great times with the Atlanta Thunder.

Through Billy, I met great guys from Mississippi State.

I mean, we had an apartment where five people lived.

And there was me in four bulldogs.

And you know, had great times personal and professionally.

So, do you sit there and sit there?

One person had an impact.

I would say Billy, you probably had the biggest impact on my life outside of parents that you could

possibly have.

And since I pretty much enjoy my life, I want to thank you for it because it's been a fun

ride.

Well, that's a really, really kind body.

I had no idea that it was to that extent.

I just remember us being roommates in a grad school and dragging out to the tennis court.

I decided to start getting balls again.

I think after college, it was a little burnout.

As you said, we were all going to be sport professional.

That was probably not thinking I would be in the tennis space, actually.

I really wanted to be and, you know, maybe the NFL is a PR person or even athletic administration

be a director about athletics.

Not that I had seen the way college athletics going.

I wouldn't want to do that today.

But, but our nerd dragging out of the tennis court and room was remarkable how well you could

hit for a guy that didn't have an extensive playing background.

And you had incredible technique.

And so it was really fun.

We started hitting a little bit and I think you kind of got the bug again and realized, you know,

you're in a perfect spot.

And so was I.

Atlanta and I know it's still to this day.

But I think particularly in the early 90s when you were there and that started this venture, it was

just booming in tennis.

I mean, you would go out and bucket and you'd meet people.

And, you know, if you're a tennis pro, you might have the same respect as a doctor.

He was kind of, it was kind of a strange.

It was a unique place.

And I know what still is.

And without the passion for tennis.

But yeah, that was a fun time.

It was a great memory.

It's funny.

Now I saw that you guys just recently played Navy.

And I know will Seagrave son plays on Navy and will was somebody we used to hang out with

in Buckhead.

And now you're coaching against his son.

So as I owe my gosh, you have the time marches on.

Yeah, that's funny.

I've had so many people that I were, I guess, contemporaries of mine who all their kids are

coming up.

And you know, a lot of times if they're, especially if they're

academic, they'll reach out and it's a great reason to catch up with these good friends.

I have a talk to you in years, but their kids are of age, maybe they're looking at Ivy League

schools, maybe not even for an athletic spot, but maybe just to, you know, just want some

information or doing tours or I've had a lot of, you know, a kid's small junior son,

you remember he's, he's sort of good football player.

And if you wanted Georgia and not playing football, but he had offers to go live.

So he did the tour.

So it's been, it's been great to even be up here in a deep connection with a lot of friends.

But they just go, again, shows my age of doing this long time where my friends kids are in college

now.

So well, talk, let's go back because it's always fun when you become a coach, people forget

that you were on a darn good Mississippi State, Tennessee.

Yeah, it was really fun.

You know, when I, I actually, as you know, going to high school and start building.

So it was sort of a natural, I went there and ended up when when I first started, we weren't

great, you know, we were, I think building a pretty good team.

And then, you know, by the time I left, we were a really good team, pretty much a top 10 team.

And then from that point on, you know, Mississippi State's been really super competitive

nationally in Tennessee.

And a lot of French guys came, in fact, again, going back one of the guys I picked up

the airport, my, uh, January, my senior who helped us really make that push to be great.

His son came a work for me, you know, last couple of years.

So, um, and he's in coaching, so it's funny.

But yeah, we were, it was a great, uh, great program.

It was really fun.

And, um, like I said, then I, you know, wanted to get a master's and that's how we met and

moved Atlanta.

And, um, it was a great time to be there.

And, um, you know, and of course we had the pro League in Atlanta at the time too, which was

really successful.

So it kind of got me back in the tennis after kind of a little bit of how you know, because I,

like I said, I was sort of burnout.

We had such a good program.

But I was like, you know, I'm not going to go for, I did play a few pro events, but I'm just going

to focus on my career and up.

And then I sort of Atlanta drug me back in the tennis to be honest with you.

So it's really cool.

Well, shut the first time we played, again, to talking about the old days of Atlanta, Billy's

like, well, I live out here.

Where did you look what exit to do live off of when we first, the first department you had?

Yeah, Northridge exit on Dunwoody.

Yeah, I go on up Georgia 400 has before the toll was even there.

You know, you had to enter, I think, 400 North there, right at the top end of the perimeter

in Sandy's spring.

Yeah.

So I had been in Atlanta six months.

I had never been outside the perimeter until then.

So he was the apps, you know, I heard about OTP.

And when I went to see Billy, I was like, where in God are we, you know, to my buddy

of mine that I went to TCU with who is the one who was my introduction to Atlanta.

He lived in town.

So I was very familiar with in town.

And the first time I went out.

And I remember we were going to hit and I went out with my Prince 110 aluminum and Billy looked

at him and said, oh, my God, it has been a long time since you played.

And immediately gave me two of his rockets out of his bag.

He said, here, keep these young.

So immediately, you know, the kindness was was very well evident.

And then obviously, so we could even, you brought up Kent Small.

So Atlanta Thunder was another fun, very tessoring into experience for all of us.

Yeah, that was great.

You know, again, that's probably what really drew me back into Tune.

They had a, they had an opening for like a facility manager operations director and, you know,

working for the world's ink to this.

And I'm sure it's the same today.

But it's like working for a mindily baseball team.

And you do a little bit of everything.

Which is actually really cool.

Like if you go work in professional sports or an intern, you're probably in a very specific space

where, you know, working there and, you know, Kent Senior, the owner of the Atlanta Thunder

at the time, he also did a cup of high reclostic.

That was also kind of his bread and butter with it was a one day basketball double header

and it used to be in the, where the Hawks played the alomni.

And then it became in the Georgia dough.

And it's crazy to think the Georgia dough is gone now.

It's a Mercedes, you know, so, but yes, that was a really fun time getting a chance to do anything.

And if you, what I really valued about that experience is, you know, got to get back

in Tune us, but also Kent Senior was, if you, even if you're an intern or, you know,

a first year employee, if you had an idea, marketing idea, promotional idea, a lead on a corporate

sponsorship, which we obviously all needed.

He was all ears.

We'd, we'd spend many hours at the old beer mug and it was not there anymore, but I'll

piece tree road there.

That was amazing play.

I was, I was really sad when I heard that close years back, but we'd have our meetings linked

to the night there, brainstorming ideas and the funny thing about the thunder, we actually

joked it.

It became, you know, thunder became synonymous with rain because every time I really felt

bad for Kent, you know, he had put his money into this.

And it was hard enough to draw for all of us to watch tennis in Atlanta, which seems countering

to it, a bit of obvious, you know, even with the AT&T challenge for many years.

And of course, the event that's the truest event that Edigens Allis is run for many years.

I know he just, kind of retired from that movie to a different venture, but he did a great job.

But I know it's a challenge in Atlanta.

You have to have the, the marquee names to really get people to come because we always

said that people want to play tennis in Atlanta more than they want to watch unless you have a marquee

name.

Um, 50 in the world doesn't always attract the fans in Atlanta, but we had that issue.

Of course, we had legends like we had never to lower play for years with a thunder and

board came in and had some really fun with them working with them.

And we were drawing well when it didn't rain.

But there was a remember just being, for two seasons of row, I think, you know, more than

50 percent of the matches would get rain in the summer.

You know, it'd be a seven o'clock Tuesday night in Atlanta.

All of a sudden that the showers would come and it was very bad time you're in fortunate.

But those were really fun times.

What it was, sometimes it was like he's done coughs running around.

They were painted trying to find another venue or what we were going to do.

But it was a really, really fun time in my life.

For sure.

It was in your right.

I mean, you think about when I first got to Atlanta, I swore because of the summers of

94 and 95 that as you said, every day at five o'clock, it just rained.

Yeah.

I mean, 95 was horrible.

And then because my brother came down and my belly got my brother in internship at with the

thunder.

So my parents came down to visit us and literally we were inside the entire time they were here

because it rained.

So the at night, summer of 95, yes, was absolutely horrendous when it came to the weather,

which made it to any of the, and you brought up an interesting point because I don't

think the smalls get enough credit because they really started to get a lot of credit.

That trend with the cup and homework class, as well.

You know, that weekend before Christmas basketball term, it UCLA co-opted NBC took it over.

But you know, they were the first ones to do it.

And it was a great, great thing.

Yeah, Ken had some great marking ideas and you know, things sometimes work for reasons,

sometimes they don't.

Obviously, this is well before social media.

What could we have done with social media?

You know, but what was cool though is I remember the last year that I was involved with a

cup and hymer.

And the Olympics were on the way.

And that was one of the exciting, you know, then we go back.

That's when I moved to Atlanta, I'm sure you thinking the same thing coming from TCU, the Olympics

would already been announced clearly year before.

Everybody was building torn deal.

And I think we tend to forget how big that buildup was.

Everybody wanted to be in Atlanta in sports and work for A.

K.I. which was the Olympic Committee for Atlanta games.

And it was, it was really funny.

I did a little side note here that I think people might find humors.

You know, with my name was very close to the guy that would you be a director of the

Olympic Games, which would be a billion paint.

You know, of course he was that top guy at the, at the masters that club there and

Gusta.

And, but I would call people to try to get maybe a corporate sponsorship for the

thunder or the company class that can, and I would be patched right through because the, the receptionist

wouldn't understand to you would think I'm Billy Payne when said Billy Payne.

So I just started kind of saying my last name really quick and hoping they did think I was

really painted.

Many times when I was your pain, I would put you right through and I would say that's easy.

So that was, I was a funny thing back down there.

It was quite a time though, but the buildup was great with the Olympics on the way and

just everybody, I think it really put Atlanta to, I mean, obviously when you, you host the Olympic

Games, that's a, that's a major international venue, but, but it really what, it put, Atlanta

sports on the map and so many good things happened after that.

And, Sean, you have to, we were so involved because we were in grad school, we had, we created

a program with the sports council of Atlanta where we essentially did all the logistics for

each monthly sports council meeting.

Plus we had all of our fellow students in various internships, in very, so we were the guys to know,

you know, you want to tickets, you want to defeat this one, we knew somebody everywhere

as Billy said plus that was like, what 90, obviously the brave's were in the world series

or playoffs every year.

I think that was 95, first Super Bowl that came to Atlanta, which was the Cowboys, which

built in our big Cowboy fans.

So we were excited to have the Cowboys here in the Super Bowl.

So that time that Atlanta, in our age group was a blast and just being part such a part of

it, you know, we knew everybody, but we knew the head of the sports council was a friend

who'd go out with us.

It was, it was a really, really great time.

Our other roommate Craig Hoover who's still at Vice President of Live Nation, you know, he

was with ProServe and then who bought them, what was the radio, can go on with the

bought ProServe?

I know then Live Nation bought them, but there was another entity in between.

But Craig's been with them 30 years.

Yeah, yeah, really cool.

The people we met and what they're doing in sports and you know, the other thing that's

kind of interesting and this was more, you, you studied to be a sports professional.

That was a start of it.

You know, really, I mean, obviously, you know, Ohio, you, I think, was the first, you know,

in the US, it had a, a master's in sports administration sports management, what have you.

And, um, but a lot of more door-by-peed departments, but, you know, you're just a,

did a really good job of attracting some of the top, uh, budding sports professionals.

And that's what drew us to Atlanta.

And that was such a good time.

And now it's a little bit different.

I think people are getting more specific with the spaces they study.

Maybe you see more of a trend.

The guys go get an MBA to work in major league baseball or what, but we really studied

for, I mean, it wasn't as common back then.

It was more, um, I remember telling my, my grandmire team, I'm going to study sports

administration as a master, it's like, what is that PE?

Right?

No, not exactly.

And it, my grandmire, like it's there, you're going to be a coach.

I'm like, no, no, more than a coach, you know, no, I'm going to coach for a long time.

But it's, it's funny.

But if you do have to even coach, you need to understand all that, um, the size of what's

going on in college and pro sports, it's super important, I think.

Again, we could, you and I personally, we could talk forever.

So let's go.

You are timeline coaching your first coaching job, Georgia perimeter of my correct?

Yeah, yeah.

And that's another sad when they go back down the very land, you know, that was a really beautiful

campus.

You know, since then, I think you guys know it's been absorbed, I believe, by Georgia State.

That happened.

I don't know roughly about five or six years ago.

And, you know, I think it's a little bit sad too from the community colleges have really

decreased.

And, you know, they're, um, you look back and what community colleges did for a lot of students.

And maybe couldn't afford school.

And, um, it was, I really sort of again, going back, I sort of backed into coaching.

I wasn't, that's the not what I was looking to do.

But I just finished my master's.

I was offered a position there to teach in the, as an adjective, professor in the, um, in the

P department.

And, but, um, and also cooks the tennis team.

And it wasn't a lot of money.

So I, you know, get a chance to mentor a lot of young, up and coming college coaches today.

And, you know, there, there are different, there's such a different generation.

They're expecting a lot of money.

And, there, you can make a little money in tennis, but not a whole while.

You're not going to get super wealthy.

But, but they're demanding good salaries.

And they're getting them.

And I remember starting out what I was making a Georgia perimeter was more of a stipend, like

coaching a high school team.

And, but I've made decent money teaching.

Like, like we all did.

And, um, but I was probably, you know, running around, you know, 60, 70 hours a week

working, but a lot that we were young.

We could do it.

But that was my first gig.

And I really, um, in terms of coaching college.

And, um, but the good part about it had a beautiful facility.

You know, there was, there was a spread out over Atlanta.

But I was at the Dunwoody campus.

We had 10 courts.

Um, you know, we could run out to programs.

We could run, um, all kind of instruction.

I had some of my guys would get out of practice and go help with the junior academy there.

That we had.

I mean, there was so many good things going.

So it was a great location to be.

And so I, I, I, I, I really backed with great fondness.

But it got me going to want to coach.

And we, then we ended up my last, I was here five years.

My last three years.

We were fortunate to win the national title in the last three years.

And so, um, and then at that point, I was 30.

And I was like, well, I really like doing this.

I don't want to coach out of for 40 hours.

We just to pay the bills, you know, I'd rather do this 100%.

And, um, and, you know, I sort of bypassed all the other, you know, career paths.

I might have had and just said, you know, I'm all in on this.

And so, and then I got an offer to go to another name to be the assistant and, um, work for an incredible guy who's probably like main mentor and, you know, life now.

You know, coach Bales and, um, it was a great experience there.

Yeah.

I think that I think speaks volumes, too, that that was a great decision where somebody in your position coming off three national championships.

We worked with somebody who, you know, shot a little higher.

You were smart enough to go as an assistant.

And you say, how long were you at Notre Dame?

Two years.

Yeah.

Two years.

So, I mean, that was a great.

And then on to Alabama.

Yeah.

Then 10 years at Alabama.

And then, uh, now 11 years here.

Yeah.

Oh, Lord, we are old.

God.

I remember when you just remember we were excited to, but now, Obama was building the new facility.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've been through a lot of facility construction that seemed Alabama.

We did two different venues.

We did an outdoor first, right after I arrived.

And then we did an indoor, which is actually a funny story.

And I'll give it a go.

And then we're building a nice facility here in New facility.

And we, um, everything, you know, and that they kind of happen for the same reason.

Both that Alabama and Princeton that you do construction, you start to get sprawl or you just

like a city does or you need more space.

But it was funny that the story of Alabama when I, uh, what's saving came in, um, everybody

was excited.

Obviously, I think we saw the opportunity that, um, the statement was going to bring Alabama,

kind of been down in the dumps a little bit on probation and football.

And, and as you know, and I'm talking to the college, too, let's go.

But any, any coach in that department would say, hey, look, we need football to be the driver

here.

I mean, that's, especially a place like Alabama with a tradition.

And I was all in on that as well.

So we had a four-court indoor facility, Alabama, which was one of the earlier indoor facilities

in college tennis.

It was built in 83 with the old coach Ray Perkins's wife loved tennis.

So she went to the present.

It was able to get that.

It shared space with the indoor football complex at Alabama.

And it was a really high route.

So you could actually ponder it.

So you imagine the tennis.

It was, you could, you couldn't really hit the ceiling in a lot that it was a pretty cool

four-court venue.

But a massive wall, and on the other side, there was a football practice football field, turf

field.

And it stopped in the five-year-old line when it hit that wall.

And then the other side went through the end zone.

So technically it was like 105 yards, not 120.

Well, saving does his first tour in the venue.

And they're showing around.

He's been obviously well received or shown that the facilities like, hey, what do we need to do?

And he's walking through the start.

And he likes it.

But he gets to the wall and goes, what's on the other side of this wall?

And they say, well, it's indoor bar 3 tennis.

He goes, in nicely, I think he goes, move them, give them something, but move them.

But you know, and I would take a look at the same in a day.

And this was a great thing because he probably knew.

He needed his face, but also we needed our face.

And so we got to build a new six-quarter indoor, which is beautiful.

And we did that before I left there.

But yeah, really cool how these things happen.

And then saving a prince right now, they wanted to build a residential college.

We need to increase a role in a little bit.

Everybody lives on campus.

And it's just kind of tied on.

So we're moving across the lake on a beautiful space and we're under construction now on

an indoor out.

We're then you hear this going to be state of the art.

So I was going to see how these things work and you sort of roll with it and maybe you get

something better and so it's good.

It's always good.

It might last tangent because we're going to have her on tomorrow without Billy.

I don't be PMJ.

And those initials were infamous back in the day.

And now she's somebody that don't business with and know and grown close with the family over

the years.

And we'll get her to speak to you about you a bit tomorrow.

But again, another impact player in my life and another close friend of ours CD.

We had a great year last year.

Bulldogs, one of their college baseball world series and TCU.

Well, we know what happened to TCU.

But at least they made it to the finals, which you know,

considering where they started from when I was a freshman where they didn't,

I think they won one game to make into the National Championship game.

That was enough for me.

So but through Billy and that PMJ too.

So it's Billy's been very instrumental as we got over.

Billy, we were in college athletics.

You've been doing it for 25, 27 years now.

Tell us what do you feel about the state of college athletics with the landscape changing with NIL,

transfer portal, conference realignment, obviously NIL had a big impact on TCU's success.

So I wanted to do a has it affecting tennis in a positive way and what is some of the fallbacks.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's very, and unless you're living under rock.

I mean, we've had seismic changes in college athletics.

And it really triples down into effects every program.

You know, whatever program you are, you've got to have to feel volleyball, you know,

softball doesn't matter.

And particularly, the way you call ourselves Olympics,

sports or non-revenue sports, you know, I think one of the biggest things.

That's all really good article yesterday about the,

a lot of people, and this is all phases of life,

us blaming the pandemic for things.

Okay, and I think college athletics is probably one of the biggest violated that.

You saw programs being dropped and not just college tennis programs,

but a lot of non-revenue programs because we a lot of administrators,

a point frankly freaked out and they thought, okay, we're going to lose so much during the pandemic.

And yeah, there was some there was some losses, but I think they could have mitigated those loss.

They could have found other ways to keep programs, you know, like Minnesota and Iowa,

Minston, a straw and they were in good shape.

They were a very strong program to obviously the big ten.

And that's really sad.

And I know, you know, you get more and sometimes a time when I'm discussion,

but I think there's ways to, you know, people come to the table and figure out what's what.

But yeah, I think it's really interesting with a portal,

just looking at a college basketball right now, we're entering the final four.

There's teams that maybe we a lot of the commentators have made a point that.

These mid-major teams like a Florida Atlantic, you know, creating some of these that are really new.

Well, maybe they're actually the ones that are benefiting from the portal more.

Because sometimes you think it's going to be the bigger schools.

But a lot of the kids, the athletes, and this could be in tennis as well.

They come to the power of the first, maybe it doesn't work out, maybe it's not all it's cracked up to the yobl.

All the bells are whistled with facilities and funding and travel and all these things for you.

But maybe you're not playing or maybe the coaches are a little bit too much for you.

Whatever it may be.

And so you see kids just jumping into the portal.

You know, from our standpoint, we don't have that problem for the most far to Princeton.

Because once you get into Princeton, that's kind of your, you know, say, milkshake.

But you value that opportunity you get in an Ivy League institution.

You're not generally going to transfer.

Now, what we had is we couldn't play.

There's an Ivy policy where you can't do graduate school in the Ivy and play intercollegiate athletics.

So when everybody got this code year, all of that got two guys playing for you in C right now.

They were talking to team.

They're doing great for them.

We'd love to have them.

It's kind of sad to watch them flourish in another place.

But that's just kind of been in reality.

Some of the basketball players that you know, start in Princeton's last week, 16 team.

If they want, they've got that COVID year.

They're graduating this year.

They can go somewhere else that we have a player of Michigan in fact on the basketball team.

So it's happening in all that it is just obviously that's going to go away.

So that's going to cycle through without extra year that COVID granted those athletes.

But the back to the, the bigger issue, you know, I just think we're,

everybody's putting money into football as you know.

And a place like here is TCU, they're doing really well.

And then that money can come and support all the other programs.

But what the argument is and you know this, like if you have a football team that's trying to compete at the top level,

but you're not really the Alabama that will have states,

the LSU's, the claims that really have the money that's drawing a lot of faith,

it could be a money loss for you, obviously.

And then that impacts all the non-revenue sports.

So for us, and I put the colors, Tennessee, and with all these other non-revenue sports,

I mean, we're trying to find our place.

We're trying to do things. We call as Tennessee preserve what we have,

but also build and try to think a little bit more innovatively in terms of how we can promote ourselves more.

And be, you know, valuable in an department's eyes and not be on the shopping block, you know.

And I think if we keep going to where it's just football and basketball days,

that's a sad story to tell. And that's not why we have college athletics.

So anyway, I get off of my little tangent there myself,

but I firmly believe what all the coaches and non-revenue sports are doing,

and maybe without the limelight. And I think there's a lot of things we're concerned about in college athletics.

So we need to sort of rally around and protect and also think creatively about how we're going to operate in the future.

Well, I think the good part is,

through challenges, comm innovation. And I think a lot of the non-revenue producing sports

have had to get a little more creative to create revenue, to get people to come out.

And it helps the entire college experience. So you have an interesting background that you've been in in Alabama.

And now you're at an Ivy League school. Obviously, big difference.

Speak to some of the differences between those two entities.

Yeah, yeah, I think they are very different, but they're also a lot more similar than people think.

I mean, there's their own sort of tradition. Alabama is a big brand.

Princeton's a big brand. So how do you leverage those brands?

And I think what the thing is with Princeton, I think you, from an athletic, just a purely athletic standpoint,

what we just did in mince basketball is tremendous. And women's basketball won't want to game too.

They've been very good. And that's really visible as well. But for the mince team to make this week 16,

everybody kind of rallies around March madness with these smaller teams, right?

I don't say smaller, mid major. They know the ones that don't why have all the resources.

I think that's really interesting. But that really moves the needle.

Where there's maybe a few more opportunities to move the needle if you're Alabama,

you know, athletically. I can, typically, it speaks for ourselves, I think. But,

the difference is I think with tennis, it's not as much because tennis players in general,

we recruit. Just like the guys in the crude Alabama, I recruit a lot of smart guys. I had guys

making incredible GPAs doing doing wonderful things. Certainly, maybe their degree isn't as strong.

It doesn't have the brand of an academic brand of a Princeton. So there's that.

I think the biggest difference is the people that you're surrounded by academically.

Obviously, nobody gets into an Ivy League institution without a serious intellectual curiosity,

or, you know, showing a lot of ability academically and a desire,

scholastically, to really achieve. So that's probably the biggest difference. But everybody around

our student athletes are very interested in the subject matter for the most part.

They're not going to just slack off and they can't or else they're, you know, they be out of here, right?

So that's probably the biggest thing. I think, and it's a bigger school. It's a big state school,

versus a private university. But I do love the fact that our guys are truly student athletes.

I don't, again, I don't think we had that problem. I don't think that problem exists as much in

college tennis. Does it exist in other sports? The revenue sports, yes, of course. I mean,

we made it where it's like, it's just so much of an entry into a pathway to professional sports.

And I think I still maintain amateurism ideology. I really believe in it. I know that it was

grade 20, 30 years ago. And it's, I don't know, it's even grading more. I mean, where we're paying athletes

by this in I.L. And so, and it's not like we can't do that. It, like, for instance, it's very much

available to us. And we obviously have some very supportive donors who have the means or resources,

the connections and the business world that we could, we are. We do have a lot of athletes,

you know, taken advantage of an I.L. I don't think there anywhere near what some of the power

five deals are, but it's helpful. So I think that's the big difference. Obviously, we don't do

scholarships in the Ivy League at Lennox scholarship. So, but the financial age really good. And so,

when when you look at minstens, there's only 4.5 scholarships minst baseball. There's only 11.7.

You could still have a roster just like our baseball coach could have a roster and our 10th

team of where we could actually be exceeding that 4.5 and scholarships with a amount of financial

aid we're giving out if we're getting the right guy. And we have some of the means that don't need

the financial aid, but it could work both way. So it's actually a very fair process. I think it's

hard on some of the source to recruit when you don't have an athletic scholarship daughter. It's not

as hard to tennis though. And recruiting, probably if I can jump in and recruiting is one thing,

because that's you looking at the potential players. I had an 11 year old, 12 year old boy come to me

recently and he said, hey, coach Sean, do you think I can get into Harvard? And I thought, well,

I don't know anything about your educational abilities or your intellectual abilities or your grades.

I don't know anything about that. I just found out that he's playing tennis and he's a beginner.

This is not a good tennis player. He's a beginner and he's just getting started, but he's playing tennis

because he believes that on his college resume, so to speak on his applications, that adds to

his ability to get into that type of school. And then he came in the next week, he said, you know what?

I changed my mind, coach Sean. I'm thinking it's Duke. I'm thinking Duke is now my target.

And I said, well, that's great. My step daughter just graduated from Duke and said, oh my gosh,

can you please go ask her how she did it? And the question is, how do you do that? Is your

if you're young? I mean, yeah, if you're a nine year old, you're top 10 in the country,

play in tennis. You got a good chance you're already thinking about college tennis. But if you're

an 11 or 12 year old and you're thinking about going to a school like Princeton, is it recruiting the

matters or is that 12 year old who may not necessarily be on the team, have that still have that chance.

Is his ability to play tennis on his college application? Is that helpful at a school like Princeton?

Or if you're not going to play college tennis, they really doesn't matter.

No, I think everything's helpful. I wouldn't, but you could substitute tennis with golf or fencing

recreationally or playing the piano or violin. We obviously a lot of the kids that do enter

Princeton are very much skilled in the arts, if you will. We have so many guys I've had on my

teams here that play one or two or three or four instruments. It's crazy. Speak many languages. So I think

diversifying your resume as much as possible as good tennis would be one component of it. I tell

there's a lot of kids that try to get in on their own without our support. We get supported opportunities

each year where we can have a number of guys we can list that we will help support for admissions.

Obviously, lower than what students are not athletes getting in, but they give it up so much

of their life to be a certain level in a sport. The level in tennis has gotten to be for the

IVs. It's so hot that I would argue we have this conversation all the time. I told parents that

their kids are maybe eight, nine, ten years old. They're trying to figure out a pathway for their

kid. I can't tell them what's hard. It may cause you may have injuries. You can be really

good in tennis and actually when you're 14. But by the time you're 16, what if you kind of follow up a little

bit, all of a sudden, you know, now you put all this time into it. Maybe you sacrifice some grades because

of your traveling all the time. Most of our guys are traveling all around the US or even all around the

globe to pursue their tennis dreams. A lot of them go into the online education route or hybrid route

to give them the flexibility to miss and classes. But they have to maintain that. So it's a hard

thing to do. I think tennis is one of the hardest to go all in on tennis and decide, okay, I'm going

to try to get to XYZ school academically because of my tennis, especially understanding of

standard or what we need when all these other things could happen. So what we've actually done

on your point, like a lot of guys were recruiting never thought about IVs. They weren't they didn't

have that dream. They just we actually, and I'm going to say we talk them into it. But we basically

start seeing these kids during their junior high school or maybe right after the sophomore high school.

And we get their grades or we kind of understand like they weren't looking at IVs, but we're like,

wow, you could get in if you want to. And then those, but they weren't thinking IVs and we're thinking

mostly tennis, but they happen to be smart enough. So those are kind of the ones we're seeking, not the

ones that from age, whatever they're coming out of the room and they're all of a sudden, a parent,

like you're going to an IV, you know, I don't, you know, there's two competitive now. There's

so many people leveraging whatever skills they have in every area of life to get in the certain schools.

And so and then the applications are through the room. So again, not to get off point, but it's

really competitive. And it's it's fun. I've got admissions people have a really tough job because they want

a much a really diverse pool. And it's like we do, I will say this, it's like building a team with

they, they want, they have, you know, early action here, like early decisions are made in the fall.

And then obviously they take, I think around roughly half the class and then they, they'll take the

rest coming up here, I believe, you know, about now where the regular decision. And so once they get the

fall in myths, they kind of know what those look like and then how do they pair them on campus with

all of these, these people. So I think it's, it's like building a team you want certain cultures,

you want certain characters, you want people from all over from different walks of life. They bring

something unique to the university. And you don't want all of one thing. And our team is not all

of one thing. Nor is our basketball team or football team, which I think is really cool. And it's,

I think it's more broad and diverse than it's ever been, which I think is really neat.

And the good part is, I mean, if you look at your, you're still enjoying successes on the court,

just, you know, despite you look at the races and, you know, the, even Georgia Tech,

they're always complaints well, we have to maintain our grades and stuff to put the same football

team out there. You guys are, had the GPA and you're being, you're very successful.

Yeah, no, it's great. And I think people fail to recognize that I remember taking a history of

American sports classes and undergrad. And, you know, the Ivy's really were at the, you know,

they were really the pioneers with college athletics as they are today. You know, it was more of a

a privileged group to play athletics. You know, it was truly an amateurism idea at the time.

And that's why they maintain this idea of no athletic scholarships because they wanted to keep the

focus on student athlete. And I think it's great. We have, um, I think roughly 130 to 140

faculty members that are assigned to not the assigned to teams, but if we have, if you look at

our, my coaching page, there's a bunch of other people in there, not only my assistant coaches,

but faculty members, it's a portus to become mentor. So it is a, is a former athletic director

to develop this, um, you know, sort of program many years ago. And it just, you could imagine a school

like Princeton where some professors may not want them missing class or why are you playing

Interplay, John, at Linux at this level. But they can go on road trips. They become mentors to our

athletes. And when you have now 130, 140 of these faculty members across 38, 39 sports,

it's really cool. They start to see, wow, they have 20 plus hours a week toward your sport.

Hots are doing what all the non-apply through doing. And that's, I think they respect that. So

so it's truly, um, I think the amateurism is well in a live here. I don't know that it is elsewhere,

but for our guys to be able to achieve that, it's really cool. But the one thing that's helping us

is, and tennis in general, like people want a great education. Most of the tennis players

we recruit, even the ones that want to go, I mean, they maybe could or they're smart enough if they wanted to.

And we don't lack for good recruits. And I think everybody wants the best to do it.

Bobby, when you and I grew up in a shallow same view, and your parents, by the way, they just go

get a college education, maybe. And they didn't, they weren't, maybe, as focused on, hey, you have to

get an elite level, I get to make education. And now I feel like there's a lot of pressure. I feel

that for kids, got a lot of pressure on where they go to school. And let's be honest, a lot of the

parents want to say their kid went to XYZ, versus what's best for that individual.

Okay, my parents go, I just hope Sean continues with his school because I, I didn't enjoy school

personally. It wasn't fun for me. For me, it was, it was so show that it was tennis. It was soccer.

It was all the things I was doing. But then I remember getting into college and I remember the other

kids, I say, like the regular kids, right, the non-athletes. And they were complaining, they just

didn't have enough time to finish their work and they couldn't keep up with their studies. I looked

and I said, and you don't play a college sport. Like, how can you possibly not have time to handle

all this? I just remember being an athlete and knowing just the schedule was so structure. It was

so good for us. We didn't have much time to forget to do something or to just sit around and all

of sudden realize I was late with something. We had so many other pressures and so many other things

going on. Pushing to say, I'm going to get this done or I don't make it to my 5A and work out or I don't

make it to this. And it was just, you got the things done. It was just how it was for the student

athletes. And I always just never understood the non-student athletes that didn't seem to have time

for everything they needed to do. Right. You know, the, the, the, the makes me think it's kind of funny.

I've said this before. And one of the reasons I was really interested in Princeton, you know,

I've always said, and Bobby's known this for a long time. I've always had a fascination of New York City

and living New New York. And if I ever had the opportunity to do what I'm doing at the highest level

and and live close to New York or in New York, it'd be great. And when Princeton opened up

a school that I wanted to pursue it and I did. But also there were a couple of things to work.

You know, we had, we had some, as I said, really smart guys at Alabama and they, they could make a

three, four and they could still go out five nights a week. And I'm like, hmm, they're having a lot of fun.

They're chasing the girls or doing what they want. It shouldn't be that easy. You know, and,

I was, I was probably one of the worst in college. You know, I was, you know, having too much fun

was in a frad and as Bobby knows. And, and I, but I didn't want that experience exactly from my

student athlete. You know, one of the more serious approach. And well, guys, I could,

I could trust to do the right thing. And not like we didn't have about that. But, you know, I think here

the guys are just too busy. It's too rigorous. It's sort of like what you're saying, Sean, the time

management comes essential. And you know, the old ad, if you want something done, give it to a busy person.

And I tell our guys at all the time, you know, when they think they're sort of like going up against it

academically or, and I'm sleeping enough and they just have to manage it a little bit better.

And sometimes they need to take a step back, take a day off, you know, from tennis or take a day of

from whatever and just focus on this, get some rest. And then we have to do that occasionally. But,

it's really cool how they're able to manage that. And if you really add up the hours of the day,

assuming you're sleeping eight hours and, you know, you still have 16 hours and maybe four hours as tennis.

But what else are you doing? You're not in class that much is like two or three hours a day. So,

what they do outside of classes, the most important thing, are they playing video games? Probably not that much here.

And that's, so they just have a lot less idle time. And so they're able to, you know,

focus on what's important and hopefully for us, that's just, you know, school and tennis.

Well, you're doing a good job. What's it look like this year for NCAs?

We're in the bubble right now. We've got a big match with Penn. We start Ivy League play on Saturday

and we are really right. I mean, we've missed an opportunity last week before last year on Spring Break in San Diego.

There's a really good tournament we play with eight teams. We were in the last day. We were playing

Virginia Commonwealth, which is actually a really good team of ranked, ranked roughly around 30.

We're in the 40s of the time of, we were two points for winning and at rain. You know, California's

had an enormous amount of rain this year has been really tough for them. I know, but it did

it up, you know, we were joking if we didn't play the national anthem. We were to go to it in. And so as it turned out,

we both had red eyes at night because we had to get back, you know, fly out Sunday night, get back

for a class of Monday morning. And so neither team could stay next to your day. So we waited to

talk about seven o'clock in night. We both both team had to head to the airport. So we didn't get to finish

the match. It was like a no contest. That would have been a big one for us. But anyway, we, that,

we were going to make up that match with somebody else. And, but we need to kind of, probably,

if we don't win the league, obviously, if you win the league, you automatically get a bit. Last year,

it was pretty unprecedented. I believe the first time in history for them eight men's teams in

tennis made the incident of a game with us being one of them. So it's got to be, I can said,

incredibly strong league. So we'll see. We've got some work to do. We've got a young team. We

lost five seniors. I can mention a few of them are playing different places. So we've got four guys coming

that you're only two in the fall. So we're, we're building something special. We feel like and we're

we're excited. Yeah, especially with the new facility coming. Yeah. Well, it's, we've talked about

because I have a player that I coached South Forsyth who was very interested. And I said, well,

if you spoke to the coach, and they always get impressed. I said, well, do you want me to call them?

And they, their eyes light up. And they're like, well, what you know, I'm like, well, yeah,

we were roommates. You want me to call. And he told me, said, well, I can't get in right now. I have 11 plus

UTR. And that's not good enough at Princeton. So it's, you know, you're obviously getting the players.

Yeah, but again, that's just happening with the number. It's not, and I think it's like anything

in line. It's like, when you, if you don't, if you apply for a job, and you don't get a job, you know,

you're, we're all thinking, gosh, what did I do wrong? Or what did, why am I, what are my short

and, you know, unfortunately, the answer isn't yes, very often for a lot of recruits who made one

of common. That's unfortunate just like the admissions process. But it's not really that person to take

it personally as much as who you're being compared against. And maybe this person's a better fit

for a job or for this particular team or particular university. So, you know, I think it's just hard for

anybody to see that. But yeah, we're, we're getting really good players. We're very fortunate.

And we, we, we, we've, we like to tell this. We've been number one in undergraduate education for

last 11 years. U.S. News report. You know, because we're, Princeton's, right, unique. It's focused

on, it's not really known as much for the master's programs, a grad program, to professional school.

We don't really have, we don't have a business school, law school or med school. It's all focused on the

undergrad, really. And so that's why you're first four years here, which is when you're playing tennis

for us. It's great. And, and so that's a lot of what we talk about. But it's very unique. But yeah,

it's been a great selling point. But all the hobbies have a great selling point to financial aid

for all these universities as grown. So, for some people who may be think, okay, they know how

for athletic scholarships, I won't be able to afford to go. If they can get in, they're likely to qualify

because the financial aid packages are so generous. They want, I feel like they want to give them

out to the right of people. It's just a matter of them justifying it. And obviously getting in,

depending whether that's athletics or without athletics. Sure. And I know we're getting close on Tom

Billy. I, I want to say thanks again. This is a person who's been such a big impact on my life.

I still quote by various Billy Pace when you're breaking down a match. Billy told me,

"Look, 40, honestly, if competing over 10% of the match, we can start in the beginning 45%

going to each side. I try to tell my players that I remember when I went into high performance.

I call Billy Sibilia. I've been coaching high performance. What do I do? Billy, you know,

sat down, sent me a list of what I still have of drills to use specifically more high

performance oriented. But emphasize that the high performance is in the situation in the effort, not

any magical drill. So such a huge part of my life. I'm going to call Junior and let him know

that Penn's playing this weekend. Maybe he'll send you a text and start a little rivalry there.

And again, thanks for coming on next time. We'll spend a little bit more time on the good times.

Because I still love the big bike stories. And we have to make an origin story that at some point.

I can't take credit. That's a Hoover. But we had a lot of good times. And thank you for spending

time with us today. Sean, take it away with our last question.

We've got one question we like to ask everyone. And I've been looking forward to this one a lot

because of your experience. You know Atlanta. And Bobby, you probably know why we're asking a question

like this. But I want to give it to you. If you were King of tennis for a day or however long

for a certain thing, whether it's college tennis, social tennis, professional tennis,

tennis of the universe, whatever it is, you were King of tennis. Is there any one thing or is there

anything you would change or adjust to make tennis better for anyone in any way. You get King of

tennis. You get one thing you can do. What would it be? Yeah, I think you guys have seen the

success of the labor cop. I think the problem and Bobby said this many years ago, he remembers like

everything I said. Even if it was beat us, he seems to remember everything I said back in the day.

Maybe too many adult beverages. But Bobby always said, you know, we're two folks in tennis

on promoting the player is not the sport. And if you think about a team sport, I use this analogy.

I'm right between Philly and New York. But if you're a neuro and Philadelphia, I mean the worst

kind of the Philly's walks into a restaurant. Somebody knows him and they're like, hey, that's that

guy's on the Philly's. He's a major league baseball. He might be 700 in the world in baseball. If you're

700 in the world in tennis, you're playing college tennis. So, you know, I think the team approach

is really good because it can showcase so many guys. I mean, how many when you when you watch a football

game, a baseball game, basketball and how many hockey, how many guys are being showcased, where when tennis

is on TV, typically, I mean, honestly, tennis channels is going to a good job. Maybe midweek, you

see some early round matches and people get to know some other players. But again, it goes back to

that thing I said with Atlanta sports or tennis fans. You know, understand the 50 got in the

world can be just as good as the one got in the world on a given day or if you're a four-year player,

you're not going to see the suddenly and those differences. So, I think making a more team oriented

getting fans around the world to embrace the idea of these teams and taking a part of the

TAA calendar and making more team events. The calendar is growing enough and they make some changes

to Davis Cup. But I really think a lot of the events around the world is beyond us. They're not.

They have a tough time getting people on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, become a match. And yeah,

you see the finals that it's packed. But I think with the exception of a few events, I think some of

these events are struggling financially. So, make it more of a team event, you know, involve more people.

You know, you showcase a sport at a greater level. And then we need more exposure by whether it's

even streaming. You know, I know we talk a lot about linear TV. That's really important. We talked

about that a lot of college tennis, but the streaming should be a good streaming. It should be

the ability for anybody to get tennis live anytime. So, I think those two things are super important.

If I were can get tennis, that's what I mean, I would try to do make it more team oriented. That's

coming from a college coach where I believe in culture and team camaraderie and being a little bit more

unself-inspired. But I think we tennis needs more of that. I knew we'd get a good answer out of you.

I really appreciate it. Bobby Billy, I know you guys could talk forever, but let's schedule another

time because I know we've got plenty of questions, plenty of stories to tell. We will make sure we get you

and especially we want to talk again after the college season. See how it went. And then also ask,

I've got a bunch of questions about what universal tennis is doing with streaming. You said,

"Streamings are a good thing. They're doing the national championships or the IT on prime." They're

doing some cool stuff. We want to kind of get your thoughts on a lot of that. But we can even get

to ask him about the R tennis. Well, that's the thing. We've got to go talk to that guy right now.

But we really appreciate your time Billy and we will definitely stay in touch. I know you talked about

the elox and I'm sure you won't be very far away. Yeah, great. I really appreciate what you're doing

for tennis and I really appreciate you having me on this great. It's great and ever you have and I wish

you all the best. Bye, come proud of you. Oh, thank you. And proud of you guys.

Well, there you have it. We want to thank Rejovenate for use of the studio and be sure to hit that

follow button. Also, we've been nominated for a podcast award. The best tennis podcast. For more

about that, check the show notes. And with that, we're out. See you next time.