Season 24 Episode #57 Bobby Schindler and Shaun J Boyce
In this episode, we talk to Michael Chojnacki who is a cofounder of BaselineVision. The Baseline Vision technology offers line calls, match statistics, and gamification of practice.
Use Code: “ATP200” for $200 off your very own BaselineVision system at baselinevision.com
YouTube Full: https://youtu.be/UisQmOeL_uI
More about Michael: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-chojnacki-49b61a66/?originalSubdomain=il
Shaun Boyce USPTA: [email protected]
https://tennisforchildren.com/ 🎾
Bobby Schindler USPTA: [email protected]
https://windermerecommunity.net/ 🎾
Geovanna Boyce: [email protected]
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Transcript
[Music]
Speaker:Welcome to the Atlanta Tennis Podcast.
Speaker:Every episode is titled "It starts with tennis" and goes from there.
Speaker:We talk with coaches, club managers, industry business professionals,
Speaker:technology experts, and anyone else we find interesting.
Speaker:We want to have a conversation as long as it starts with tennis.
Speaker:[Music]
Speaker:Hey, hey, this is Shaun with the Atlanta Tennis Podcast, powered by GoTennis.
Speaker:Check out our calendar of Metro Atlanta Tennis events at Let'sGoTennis.com
Speaker:and go to Let'sGoTennis.com/mystory to share your favorite tennis story.
Speaker:And with each story you share, you'll be entered into our monthly giveaways
Speaker:and we will pick one story every month to share on the Atlanta Tennis Podcast.
Speaker:And now let's get into our recent conversation with Michael Chojnacki,
Speaker:who is co-founder of Baseline Vision, which is a cutting-edge tennis analysis system.
Speaker:It handles line calls, match statistics, gamification, and more.
Speaker:Have a listen and let us know what you think.
Speaker:[Music]
Speaker:Give us everything you got on you and Baseline Vision, the origin story.
Speaker:Give us everything you got.
Speaker:Yeah, sure. Well, I didn't invent it alone, of course.
Speaker:We never know what we do in those kind of things.
Speaker:I'm originally from Belgium.
Speaker:I was always born and raised there.
Speaker:I've played tennis for my life since I've four or five years old.
Speaker:I've always been a tennis freak, been a big samfras fan for most of my life.
Speaker:And then at some point, you know, federally I kind of took over.
Speaker:Which is, I think it's common.
Speaker:I think it's a common, you know, I mean, there is some similarities in the style, I guess.
Speaker:It worked for me, Michael. It worked for me.
Speaker:I was a second.
Speaker:There you go.
Speaker:You know, there you go.
Speaker:So, I've been playing, you know, never close to be pro, something like that.
Speaker:But I was decent.
Speaker:I was when I was younger.
Speaker:I was pretty, you know, okay, in terms of, you know, competitive level.
Speaker:Now I'm just old and bold, but I'm still a tennis.
Speaker:And I'm originally a Neospath engineer.
Speaker:So that was my kind of first career.
Speaker:I studied the Eospath engineering at a university here in the north of Israel.
Speaker:And I went on and worked for about 20, 12 years, I think, in a big Eospath company here in Israel.
Speaker:Doing completely different stuff than tennis.
Speaker:I was flight testing airplanes for a whole while.
Speaker:And then, and then I went on and directed big projects for,
Speaker:in the robotics area.
Speaker:Autonomies, truck doors, autonomous vehicles basically.
Speaker:And well, at some point, I guess, I got a little bit more time to look at some of the
Speaker:numbers. And at some points, I guess, I got a little bit more time to, you know, think about what I
Speaker:love to do in my life. And the aerodynamic knowledge, the project management knowledge.
Speaker:And crazy, you know, I guess the passion for tennis came kind of all together.
Speaker:I dealt with computer vision a lot also in my previous work and in my thesis.
Speaker:So I had a video of knowledge with that.
Speaker:So kind of the tech knowledge, management knowledge and tennis knowledge in the meantime,
Speaker:kind of all kind of combined. And I started playing around with the idea of creating some
Speaker:scale. What we call it, scaleable products for enhancing engagement and fun and fairness for tennis.
Speaker:And then I met, I won a case on Unmet with Janie, which is my background, about four or five years ago.
Speaker:And he's an expert in computer vision and machine learning. And that was kind of a piece that was missing
Speaker:in the whole puzzle. And then we just said, you know, it was true, we let's do it.
Speaker:And we both kind of quit whenever we were doing and then started working on the first version of
Speaker:the hardware that was in 2019. So the first version of the hardware. So tell me about what it is.
Speaker:What is it? What is it accomplished? If I plug this thing in, we'll skip all the magic and how it all
Speaker:works on underneath the covers. But what does it do? So yeah, that started from the end. So that's
Speaker:just to help you to bring it to a visual. I don't know if everybody's going to see that, but that's,
Speaker:you know, that's how it looks. So basically it's a small camera in terms of the hardware that
Speaker:seems pretty simple to understand. There was our two cameras and what a quite powerful computer,
Speaker:which basically processes everything in real time. So we have two high-speed, high-resolution
Speaker:cameras, one from each side of the cord. You instant that camera device on the net post with
Speaker:these are attachment, touching arm. You click that camera on it. So you have one camera looking
Speaker:on the left side of the cord, one camera on the right side of the cord, and we are tracking the player,
Speaker:tracking the board, trying to tracking the court at 60 frames per second. And the computer basically
Speaker:processes those frames to provide initially data. So that's the product in terms of, you know,
Speaker:how it's made. Now, what does it do? It brings or main capability. And with those capabilities,
Speaker:we're going to start building products for different, for a different part of the market. So one
Speaker:capability is everything related to performance tracking. So it's tracking your speed,
Speaker:tracking your net clearance, tracking the board placement, player position. It's tracking the speed
Speaker:and the speed that well we can talk about it in a second if you want. The number, you know,
Speaker:where the board is, is here in or out for both for has data interest. So that's for
Speaker:performance tracking. Second, second thing it does is well-line-coding. One of the toughest
Speaker:challenges in Tennis, you know, challenge is just to write word for it. In Tennis, you know,
Speaker:whether the board is in out. So we're doing that in three different ways. There is a whole part
Speaker:of the product that's dedicated to that. We can speak about it as well if you want. That's the
Speaker:second capability. Third one is recording everything that's happening on the court. So we have video feedback.
Speaker:We kind of aim that video feedback for specific use cases, use cases. But it's recording everything
Speaker:and you can access your video on the court and after. And also it gives instant feedback.
Speaker:Whether it's data, you know, service speed, for example, in all those kind of things. But also in
Speaker:terms of what's happening on the course where events are recorded. And the device itself is reacting
Speaker:to different events on the court. The way it is doing, you have to either,
Speaker:where you put your through your smartphone. So you have a screen there and it shows you whatever
Speaker:happens in real time. And the second way of interacting in real time is when you have, we have
Speaker:led lights on both sides that can light up and with different patterns and with different
Speaker:color patterns. And you have two powerful speakers that are basically speaking with you.
Speaker:And we use that for different stuff. One of the main things we do with that instant feedback
Speaker:is gamification, for example. So those are the four main capabilities. One amazing, one
Speaker:missing piece on the product is that you have a nap that you can download from Google Play,
Speaker:App Store. When it works on both. And then you connect that app through a barcode on the back of
Speaker:the camera. Your phone will connect directly to the camera to a Wi-Fi signal. So it's a local Wi-Fi
Speaker:signal. You don't need Wi-Fi on the court. And your phone will talk with the camera and then
Speaker:don't the data and the streams are going to go to your phone or tablet.
Speaker:So I'm going to do it backwards again. I'm going to start with the last thing you said. My phone
Speaker:is going to talk to the camera. Bobby, I love it. The fact that that's a normal thing to say in 2024.
Speaker:Absolutely. It's going to tell him, send me data, don't send me data, show me video, show me the
Speaker:challenge. And then, you know, they're going to start having a discussion between them. And then
Speaker:you'll see whatever the phone asks for. My phone is going to have a conversation with my camera.
Speaker:I love it. So of the four things, Bobby, I'm going to leave it to you as to where you want to start,
Speaker:because I'm sure we've got a million questions for Michael here. So performance a player does. So it's
Speaker:going to see how fast I'm going. Is it going to look at my strokes? It's going to see what I'm doing.
Speaker:Line calls. It's going to give me a little red LED or something and say, out and give me that kind
Speaker:of thing, right? And then it's going to record for playback so I can watch the tape. So to speak
Speaker:afterwards and then give me instant feedback, Bobby, where are we starting with all this?
Speaker:I don't even like said, it's Pandora's box. Obviously, I think the one most people would be
Speaker:immediately interested in is line calls. And then the effect it could have not only on juniors,
Speaker:but also collegiate. I mean, you know, Atlanta got where the where the largest recreational tennis
Speaker:league in the country. And as I like to say on the court, the line is good every other day except
Speaker:Thursday, because that's the day the ladies play. So you see a lot of cheating on Thursdays.
Speaker:And we don't think it's malicious. We just think it's age, but you know, this is revolutionary.
Speaker:You know, to be able to hook this up. And so what are your accuracy rates? What is your beta test?
Speaker:Your testing told you as far as I mean, I know nothing's perfect, but it's probably better than the
Speaker:human eye. Right. So when you talk about accuracy, I mean, that's also a kind of a long discussion.
Speaker:You can talk, you know, hours a lot. But basically when you're talking about accuracy, you have four
Speaker:components that impact that accuracy. And then it really depends on combination of those
Speaker:four elements. One is your lighting. If you're lighting is good or bad, you can have a
Speaker:more, you know, better or worse, you know, accuracy. Second is is a speed of the shot. Because, you know,
Speaker:shot is faster. You're going to have a harder time to have to have enough data to be more precise.
Speaker:The distance from the camera. So you remember we have only one camera on one side of the net.
Speaker:That's on purpose. We don't want to load the code with hardware. It needs to be really see
Speaker:pimple to install. And that's one straight up orbit. So there is only one camera there. I mean,
Speaker:two camera with one device. So the distance to camera and the background. So we have a noisy background
Speaker:or very high contrast or low contrast background. It can impact that. So those four components are
Speaker:always a bit different in terms of where you play. And what I mean, the bottom line that we always say
Speaker:to everyone that asks that question is that you cannot, you cannot never get to one number.
Speaker:So what we said is that 95% of the time we're at least twice better than the human eye.
Speaker:Oh, I like that statement. I like that a lot. So because that's what Bobby and I talk about when we say,
Speaker:okay, well, even if we were to pick baseline vision and we're playing a tennis match and we said,
Speaker:okay, we're going to use this for line calls. The agreement really is that we're just not going to
Speaker:argue about it because it's just as good as us making our own line calls. At least we're just going
Speaker:with the thing to tell us because it's going to be the same on your end as it is on my end. It's
Speaker:going to be just as good. It's going to be consistent. And it just means I'm not going to make any
Speaker:mistakes and you're going to be mad at me or more often than not. I think personally, as Bobby says,
Speaker:it's age, but it's also, I think we call the ball in when it's out more often on accident as tennis
Speaker:players. I think we miss line calls to the benefit of our opponent more than we intentionally
Speaker:hook somebody. Would you agree with that being in the actual industry there?
Speaker:I mean, my intuition is that you're right. I think the truth is that nobody knows.
Speaker:I'll tell you more on that. I think nobody really knows even at the actual level.
Speaker:You're asking me. So even when you get your accuracy better because you have 20 cameras on the court
Speaker:and at the end of the day, you want your system or whatever line calling age you have to be
Speaker:good enough to be trusted. And scientifically proven to be more better than you in the vast
Speaker:majority of the cases. And that's usually enough because the rest of the for the whole rest of the
Speaker:cases, it does it does a lot more than that. It basically it what we've been seeing in tournament,
Speaker:for example, for young players, not especially ages, for young players, is that the only fact that
Speaker:there is a third eye on the court basically reduces the level of arguments already even before
Speaker:you even challenge one call. And that the first iterations know that. So the rest of the war
Speaker:be is mainly to be actually enough to be trusted widely and usually that it makes a lot of
Speaker:you know, impact already. So in that case, why don't you just name it third eye?
Speaker:That's just an idea. Maybe we should rebrand.
Speaker:I'm going to rebrand. But who would you spell? Because that's one of my questions.
Speaker:You're only in a tent at them. Exactly. You put the camera at the net.
Speaker:Yet you call it baseline vision. Why?
Speaker:I mean, baseline came out because I think the main reason, you know, I can invent all kinds of stuff.
Speaker:But I think the main reason is that it sounds good. But I think if you want to lay your down there,
Speaker:it's like we wanted that to be kind of the standard as an experience. Not especially as a product.
Speaker:But as an experience, we want to be kind of the standard on every call.
Speaker:That's the way we see tennis would be played in a few years from now.
Speaker:tennis cannot be if you want to talk with new generation. If you want to bring a better experience
Speaker:and more fun and engaging experience on the court, tennis cannot stay a piece of asphalt and a net
Speaker:for forever. If you need to bring more experience, you need to bring something more.
Speaker:And that kind of experience needs to be kind of the baseline, kind of the standard.
Speaker:So it's not a direct reference to a baseline versus a sideline.
Speaker:This is a basic meaning almost exactly. A minimum expectation of accuracy or in this case,
Speaker:assistance in having a good experience. Yeah, more than that. Yeah, standard experience that you want.
Speaker:We're not been wondering about that for months, Michael, like baseline vision, but they stick the
Speaker:thing at the net. I don't get it. I mean, it's good. There's no bad to release it here, right?
Speaker:Even if you can't remember and you should talk about the name. It's already good for us.
Speaker:And sometimes those origin stories are fun. I mean, we've got our story about our logo too. So we
Speaker:we talk about the things we say, hey, how did that come to be? Because sometimes it's it's fun to
Speaker:look under the covers a little bit and say, where did you get there? So what's the story if you have a minute?
Speaker:Her for the logo. Yeah. Oh, come on. We usually do our best not to talk about ourselves, but let's just
Speaker:say I'm going to be extremely, extremely expensive logo. We'll just put it that way. We love it.
Speaker:But it costs a lot more than it should. Okay. So Bobby, we talked about line calls. That's the
Speaker:if there's a baseline of, you know, at least we're going to have something that's better than we are
Speaker:at calling the lines, even all the way across the court. Let's agree to use the system. Where do you
Speaker:want to go next with Michael? Well, I think it's the overall the technology just integration becoming
Speaker:more and more into the sport. I mean, that's the fun of the thing that we do that's fun is speak to
Speaker:the innovators that are trying to bring more and more technology to tennis. And obviously,
Speaker:where I see this, it do you have an analytic component built into it? When do we know when the
Speaker:the phone is talking to the baseline, your apparatus? Is that something that we is available now?
Speaker:Is it coming? Because I know analytics is becoming a much bigger business. And this would be a great
Speaker:way to, I mean, the batch is recorded. So you could send it to somebody right away and have the
Speaker:analytics brought. You know, you're taking a step out of the process, which makes the process
Speaker:easier, which now more people can maybe search out. How do we get our match analytically? Look at
Speaker:well, absolutely. I mean, even if we spend the last five, 10 minutes talking about line calling
Speaker:and we know is it more to talk about the majority of the usage today of our devices is for coaching.
Speaker:Then that's where we start talking about what to do with that data. So there is absolutely. We
Speaker:called a vast amount of data. We don't show half of the data we record because it's half to grasp.
Speaker:So the main thing you start with is your speed, your net clearance, your ball position,
Speaker:your play placement, your percentage in, in, out and net. And that's for pure data that you're
Speaker:gathering. Now, I think with the art of doing something fun, engaging and useful at the end of the
Speaker:day is to pack that data into something that people can use. Throw in just a bunch of numbers at
Speaker:the face of people is great because it's right, but it's not valuable on the long term. So the
Speaker:device does all the calculations and knows everything. Now, we have different products when we
Speaker:pack that data in different ways. In coaching, for example, and that kind of relates that
Speaker:interactive part with the data, the thing that works the best for us in trainings for now is
Speaker:our kind of gamified drills. And in gamified drills, we combine the ability to get data
Speaker:in with the ability to give instant feedback and have this kind of interactivity with the
Speaker:led lights and the speakers. And then it gives you afterwards something to learn easily from that
Speaker:data because at the end of the day, that's what you want. So I'll give you an example. One of the games
Speaker:we have out there is it's called deeper. Just by the name, we can imagine already what the
Speaker:game is about. You have five minutes, you're playing baseline to baseline, not the device, the
Speaker:great baseline. You can play by group or singles and you play like you play five minutes and your
Speaker:goal is to play the deepest you can and the more consistent you can. The deepest you hit the board,
Speaker:the more points you get. And if you don't miss 20 shots, you get times two bonus. You don't miss
Speaker:30 shots times three. You don't miss four shots times four. And the device will talk to you,
Speaker:literally talk to you and blink and light will blink during those five minutes. It will tell you
Speaker:your score and we come down the time. It will make a chime every time you hit a good target. And it
Speaker:basically turns the whole core thing to a game zone that makes the whole thing a lot more fun and
Speaker:engaging. And so the whole thing is using data. I'm using your placement. I'm using your
Speaker:speed. I'm using your rally length. I'm using your placement. A body placement. And so on and so
Speaker:forth. At the end of the game, you have a very simple summary that basically focuses you on
Speaker:improving your depth and consistency. And that's the only thing you want to you want to push people
Speaker:to understand. That's kind of whole pipeline. And that's what data does for us today. We're going to
Speaker:continue. We have two games like that today. We're going to continue in the next few months to add more
Speaker:and more bills. Bobby, I'm sold. I want three of these things. But as a coach, you look at it,
Speaker:you see the kids. You say, okay, we're going to play the games. And then my brain goes, all right,
Speaker:Michael, so what I'm going to need you to do next is I'm going to need you to be able to project
Speaker:onto the courts. When the ball bounces, we get a cool little thing and a big like an augmented
Speaker:reality thing, whether I would have got to wear glasses or not. Like we talked to the VR people and
Speaker:we're thinking, how do we bring this on to a real tennis court? And it appears you've almost pretty
Speaker:much done that. Yeah, yeah, of course, you don't have the visual because you're playing tennis,
Speaker:right? You don't want to take that out. You're still playing tennis. But, uh, but you do have the
Speaker:instant feedback. You have something that's working with you and making your whole thing more fun.
Speaker:And as opposed to Bobby stand over the side going short, that's the point. Short, that's a short,
Speaker:short, no longer hidden deep in the coach having to run the whole thing. It sounds like your,
Speaker:your camera, the machine does it for you. Bobby, I think I think we get to retire. We buy this,
Speaker:we don't have to do anything anymore, right? What do I, I, you know, to me, it opens up more things to
Speaker:yell at them about. Absolutely. On the contrary, I think you're not going to have to retire at all.
Speaker:It's just, I mean, it's give you another tool. It's not, I think it's never going to replace a coach.
Speaker:And it's not meant to be. And that's what the coaches want to hear too. The point of this is,
Speaker:I don't want to say ancillary because that makes it seem like it's extra on the side, but it really
Speaker:is of, of value to adding on and saying, Hey, there is so much more you can do using this thing.
Speaker:Sure. So, so it's a, yeah, it's training aid. So training tool, it is not a coach. And it's not meant to be,
Speaker:we are still convinced that the coach has, has, has a very, very important road in that, in that,
Speaker:in that pipeline, we're just bringing a new experience. We don't bring a coach.
Speaker:So you're selling mostly two coaches. This isn't really a thing that a player is going to buy
Speaker:a retail or can I bring it with me to my league matches and use it?
Speaker:No, absolutely not. So we are not, we're not feeling the coaches only at all. I mean, we have coaching
Speaker:features and those are the ones who are used. There are use even without coaches as well. I mean,
Speaker:those those drills and stuff. I mean, lots of individual players are just, you know, hitting with
Speaker:each other and playing deeper games just because it's fun. And, and, and so that is that part. And then,
Speaker:then there is a line calling part of a lot of players, individual players are just playing matches.
Speaker:And, and, and one, the line to be called and one starts just to understand what they did after
Speaker:without the whole interactive part. So we, we have that part as well. So we have your stats
Speaker:that you can access after the game that gives you your, your, your, or your percentages, your,
Speaker:your placement, how well you did, where I've been. We have a new bunch of stats that's coming in two,
Speaker:three weeks, right? From now, three weeks from now, which is going to give you contextual stats about
Speaker:your match, you know, points one break points, Aces winners. So, so a lot of those, a lot of those players
Speaker:want to have access to that. So we have kind of a diverse, uh, uh, uh, ways of using the product,
Speaker:if you're, to looking at the customer base we have today, we have around 50% of our, of our customer
Speaker:base are individual players. Either they want, uh, they don't want the club to, you don't want to
Speaker:wait for the club to have it, they just want it. And it's, it's easy to transport it in a,
Speaker:big, big backpack. And it's 20 seconds installation. So it's not a big deal. So they've stored it every
Speaker:time they go to the club. So a lot of, lots of those. And then the second part is, is a coach
Speaker:in clubs. So we have clubs or buying it. First thing they usually do, uh, while they're implementing that
Speaker:in their, in their tournaments, they're in the meantime, the academy, which is in the club,
Speaker:is using it for, for coaching. Um, and then on the weekends and stuff, they use it in form,
Speaker:for, for, for like calling for, for tournaments. Um, uh, and then we have lots of coaches as well,
Speaker:who are not especially related to any kind of club, they're independent coach, and they're using that
Speaker:in, in whatever, uh, court, they're, they're teaching. That's interesting. I let Bobby usually jump
Speaker:into the business side, but I'll kick Bobby off because I have that financial question because this
Speaker:is not a cheap, this is, this is not a low cost investment for something like that. So I'll admit,
Speaker:I'm surprised you've got as many, we talked about 50% of actual just players that aren't using
Speaker:the coaching side, really finding value in the gamification and the line calling. And, and maybe
Speaker:the stats at the end, if you're going to kind of self analyze, Bobby, did you have the same, same
Speaker:opinion that I did there? Oh, I, I, that's the, in our society today with these kids who grew up with
Speaker:a phone attached to their hand and instant gratification, you know, I always give them a hard time that
Speaker:their vote, their learning is motivated by their score. So this is going to provide, you know, how did I
Speaker:do in constant feedback, you know, and, and again, in a, in a kind of weird way, while separating the,
Speaker:you from out of the, having to make the call that I hit it deep enough, the machine is recording
Speaker:that for you. So it's got a inner game of tennis field to it. Listen, disconnect. All you're supposed
Speaker:to be doing is concentrating on hitting the ball to a certain spot because everything else is being
Speaker:taken care of for you, which is, is great. You know, so hopefully you can, you know, take that part
Speaker:of the body out of it and relax more and concentrate on really what you should be doing. But yes,
Speaker:always, I guess, financially, is there going to be the bottom line and, and forgive me. What, what's the
Speaker:cost? Right. So, so we sell those, those devices through our website. Price point is $2,000.
Speaker:Now, the app is free. Everyone can download it. Everything I talked about, you know, which is,
Speaker:you know, live calling and the stats and videos that you can see on the court and, and download after,
Speaker:and two games that are already in there and then you have another package of, of match stats that
Speaker:is coming in those are free in those are the free package and those are always going to stay free.
Speaker:We're going to continue adding more stuff, which is advanced, features, and they're going to be
Speaker:at some monthly fee, but the empirical challenge is always be that that that free package through the
Speaker:app. Now, it is, I mean, expensive is subjective, right? But, but, but, we, we always had a trade of
Speaker:between making something very cheap and then compromise on quality, then compromise on performance,
Speaker:and then switching on the other side, which is, you know, it's going to start to be too expensive for
Speaker:whatever market we're, we're, we're aiming for. You know, we are, we can always, we're always trying
Speaker:to find the right balance and to, and to, and to optimize that. We're working with really state
Speaker:of the art components and that's very important for us. Part of the, part of the value of that,
Speaker:of the device, which we, we believe, part of the value of that device is that it's a, is,
Speaker:it's performance and, and ease of views comes at a price as well, right? You need good components,
Speaker:you need a quality build, you need a good computer's inside, you know, to be able to process all that
Speaker:data and give instant feedback, you know, right? We call a line in between 0.3 to 0.5 seconds.
Speaker:And that's very important for us to have that, that, that, that, that level of, of experience.
Speaker:And it comes at a price and, and, and 2000 is, is whatever compromise we've managed to do up to today.
Speaker:That's a good answer because that's always a tough one. I say, why is it expensive? Well, because it's
Speaker:really good. Let's, let's start with, hey, this is, this is high-end stuff. Remember Bobby, we were
Speaker:talking to one of the ball machine guys. He's like, everything is amazing inside of this thing. It
Speaker:isn't just, isn't just a hamster on a wheel. Like, this is really high-end stuff. And they're,
Speaker:they're a lot of fun to look at when I'm just trying to look at what it does, why it exists,
Speaker:and what it's going to do for tennis. And Michael, in the technology side of things, you obviously
Speaker:have looked at competitors, you're going to look at other technologies. Being an aerospace guy,
Speaker:you're not just, you know, I'm sure you're not just stuck on tennis, even though that's, you've turned
Speaker:the hobby into a, into a business, which is awesome. What do you see in general, if you don't mind,
Speaker:if I zoom out from your product specifically a little bit, what do you see in general technology-wise
Speaker:that are, are we headed in the right direction? Are we doing the right things with virtual reality,
Speaker:and augmented reality, and, and magic line calling and gamification that you guys have, and the,
Speaker:the ball machines and the walls, it's no longer just a tennis coach and a player and a cone. We've
Speaker:got really cool stuff. So where do you give me a little bit of your vantage point there, if you don't mind?
Speaker:I mean, I always think, and I'm continue to think that, you know, technology, just take for
Speaker:tech as no value, right? You always, you know, if you're able to achieve something, which,
Speaker:you know, at the end, makes your life better with tech, so, you know, you, so you hate it. If it doesn't
Speaker:do that, right? If you just provoke whatever addiction or, or, or, you know, bad, long-term, bad
Speaker:behavior or, or, or stuff like that, you're, that, that's where it becomes, useless or not useless,
Speaker:even bad, right? And, and tennis is the same. So, tech for tech in tennis is not especially a good thing.
Speaker:There are a lot of companies out there that are doing great stuff, actually, on different,
Speaker:on different levels, then, they have different target, different products, actually, and different
Speaker:target markets and, and, and, and everything is, is, is gray until the point when you're actually
Speaker:taking away the essence of the sport, which is, you want to go and, and, and, and, and keep the real
Speaker:value of tennis, which is, you know, sportsmanship, and you want to make, and you want that physical effort
Speaker:to stay a physical effort. You don't want people, you know, look at their phone while they're playing
Speaker:tennis, that's not the goal, right? So, as long as you're keeping the real fundamentals of what it
Speaker:is, play tennis, which is doing sports exercise, getting better mentally, getting tougher mentally,
Speaker:working on your mental being, well, good sport, having a good sportmanship,
Speaker:learning to lose, and, and as long as you, as, as long as you keep those values and you're only
Speaker:making the experience better around those values, there's no, there's no problem. And, and,
Speaker:and, I think overall we do head in the right direction, I do, I think overall what is being done,
Speaker:I mean, let's, let's focus on tennis right now. I think the, the, the, the tech that is being made for
Speaker:tennis today, overall, I mean, there are exceptions here and there, but I think overall is, is, is, is,
Speaker:are still keeping the, the, the game as, as, as, as a sport, right? And, are still keeping the,
Speaker:are still trying to keep the good values, there is no, I don't, I don't see anything out there
Speaker:trying to deliberately, you know, screw up the sport. That'd be interesting, Bobby, we're going
Speaker:to have to find the, the tech company that's out there trying to ruin tennis. Do we, we talked to
Speaker:anybody that we think that, or I think they try, I mean, maybe my thing, they help and they don't,
Speaker:but you know, I don't, I don't see any of those. Yeah, and everybody has, a couple of rocket
Speaker:manufacturers, I could argue, tried to tell, kill tennis with a few rockets they've made over the
Speaker:years. And the, the, the sad part is even with the rocket state, some of the, you know, with the
Speaker:handles, with the tech built it, it, it doesn't replace you hitting the ball, you know, it's,
Speaker:it's the same thing with the line call. It's not going to absolve you of your responsibility.
Speaker:You're still going to have to do it. It's going to be, hey, it's nice to have, you know, you have
Speaker:somebody on your shoulder helping and keeping you straight. And I just say it goes back to the more
Speaker:pleasurable experience. I think you're seeing it in so many professional sports and I'll use basketball,
Speaker:I'm a big basketball fan. And there's a lot of gripe with the NBA now because these guys scored,
Speaker:scoring keeps going up, no, he's playing defense anymore. But I think a lot has to do with it,
Speaker:just offensively, these players are incredible. And they, they're shooting at higher percentages.
Speaker:And when you're, you've changed the game a little bit from a three point, you're two pointed to a three
Speaker:point. So gradually scores are going up. And then you bring in a higher aptitude and all the
Speaker:suddenly scores are seemingly a lot higher. But it's, it's been a process. And I think you've
Speaker:already seen it in tennis, you know, the evolution of the game, the players have gotten bigger, stronger,
Speaker:more athletic, more nutrition based. Now you're going to throw in even more reps. In seemingly a more
Speaker:relaxed environment, I don't know how much bet more bet, you know, how much better they can get. But
Speaker:I do believe all this leads to, you know, before I go away permanently, the difference between
Speaker:the recreational player and the professional, I think will be unbelievable because the professionals
Speaker:will, obviously, they're going to be the ones who drive the tech because they have the most
Speaker:to gain from it. So, you know, they're the sellers of it. And I think it's going to be extraordinary.
Speaker:Absolutely. I mean, there is, there is that. And I think the big question is, is the end is,
Speaker:is adoption, right? It's always easy. It is to, to, to, to make people adopt it, right? Or to,
Speaker:or to introduce a new tech in the market, if you have great stuff, but it's very, very hard to
Speaker:make people use at the end, you're not going to have a big impact. And, and the other way around,
Speaker:what we've been trying, for example, to do from the start is to kind of have the perfect
Speaker:combination between ease of use, portability, or, you know, standalone list, the packet you don't
Speaker:need, an installation on the core, real-time performance, and affordability, and kind of try to
Speaker:combine and trade off all the time with those components. At the end of the day, that's, I think,
Speaker:that's going to drive that, that adoption. And it relates to what you're saying. And that's the
Speaker:only way you're going to first get, you know, the big guys to, to, to, to, to use it, but not, not only,
Speaker:you're actually going to, going to get both sides of, of, of the sport, even the high level pro and,
Speaker:and the recreation, not to use the same kind of tech at the same time. And that's what's, that's what's
Speaker:great, I think. Well, how do we bring, how do we continue to, not just improve who's already playing,
Speaker:but I think Michael, what you're, what you're reminding us of is the values that come back to the
Speaker:technology should appeal to a broader audience. Can we bring in more tennis players to say,
Speaker:this thing is great. It's why we love it. We've got many people that have our lives hide into tennis
Speaker:and racket sports in general. And how do we, how do we bring people in and say, hey guys, all the,
Speaker:all the things you've heard before, I don't want my kid to play tennis because he's going to be out
Speaker:there and he's going to be bullied by the other kid into losing a match because of the line calls or,
Speaker:whatever those things are, or the kids that just want to play video games, well, hey, can we get them into
Speaker:augmented reality or virtual reality and then augmented reality and then all of a sudden the game
Speaker:a fight baseline vision, where they're hitting a real tennis ball on a real tennis court, but they're
Speaker:still playing a game. And then maybe they actually go outside and get some sun.
Speaker:Wouldn't I? I hope you will. You're kind of combined with the two words. If I think that that
Speaker:problem for the beginning, and I'm going to ask you one question, why you're saying we're losing kids
Speaker:to tennis? Why do you think that happens? Why do you think specifically tennis is losing kids,
Speaker:for example? Bobby, you're mean. I do keep going. I'll agree or disagree, but I mean,
Speaker:I think it's the level of the difficulty of the sport has a lot to do with it.
Speaker:It's a highly skilled sport. Yeah, I agree. And I agree. Pickleball has a quicker upside.
Speaker:You pick it up quicker, jumps right in, part of the popularity, especially with the high school players,
Speaker:but a little bit is the complicated nature of how it works. But I also think in the United States,
Speaker:specifically, Michael, where tennis is about the seventh or eighth most popular sport, it's not the
Speaker:first sport kids get into. Soccer is easy. Don't get me wrong. It's hard to be good, but soccer is easy.
Speaker:Go in, kick the ball around. Kids have fun. You can do it sooner. Football's harder. So as the
Speaker:games get more popular, we have sports here that football, baseball, basketball. Those are your big
Speaker:three here. And then we've got a few more of the kids try. And then if it doesn't work out, maybe they
Speaker:come try tennis, but it is as popular here in the US. So combined with Bobby, I would answer,
Speaker:it's difficult. It's very difficult to be good, even competent at some level. And it's rarely
Speaker:the first sport that they try. So I think combined that's our answer. Right. So on that difficulty part,
Speaker:that's where I went up basically bounce off because it is true. It is a big part of tennis. And I think
Speaker:that's one part of the beauty of the game actually, but it's very hard to learn. Until you actually can
Speaker:hit a good winner, it's got you need to train for a few years, which is not the case in other sports,
Speaker:for example. And then now the question is, what do you, I mean, you're not going to change that. It's
Speaker:not going to, you're not going to make it easier to learn. What you can do is making the whole process
Speaker:more fun and engaging. And you can use data to do that. And that data path can be an integral part of
Speaker:your learning cycle and your competing cycle because you're going to get data from your matches and
Speaker:line coding for your matches as well, which tremendously improves the experience of your matches.
Speaker:So so by enhancing the whole experience easily, right. And that's the second part of it.
Speaker:To make it very easily accessible, 22nd installation on the call you don't installation.
Speaker:For I feel subjective as well, but again, relatively accessible. I think that's where you kind of
Speaker:crack that problem. I like that. I think Sean, we left out one component and it's always based
Speaker:into the tennis is that it's economically, it's a high entry point. Let's put it that way. And you
Speaker:look at something that says $2,000, oh, well, look, you're just you're continuing the process. But I
Speaker:look at the opposite way and I look at it in a long run from a club's perspective, from a coach's
Speaker:perspective, from a player's perspective. I mean, it was bound to come up about age, but you know,
Speaker:when I was nine years old, it was a big deal that they took a super eight camera, you know,
Speaker:movie of me playing tennis. That was a selling point of the academy and just the ababel to learn. And
Speaker:this is a long time ago. And now even 10 years ago, where you had companies that would literally come
Speaker:out and say, well, we'll film your tennis match. Well, even to do a lot less than listen, I'm a big
Speaker:proponent. But if I'm going to get paid and then I have to pay somebody else, that lesson really
Speaker:just double, if not more in price, where the reality is, if you're a club and you're putting this
Speaker:on your teaching court, and you can't make $2,000 in a year, you have a lot of issues. So this should not
Speaker:be a stumbling point at all. Take all that money that you're making off all these new pickable
Speaker:players and hands your tennis technology and use that to the benefit of the sport to get people
Speaker:engaged. And it'll help the coach where you're not going to be the one constantly having to say,
Speaker:no, but listen, the machine said you're aiming at a target. The goal was this, I didn't have to tell you
Speaker:what you didn't hit it deep enough. The machine instantly did. So I just, you know, to make
Speaker:short-sighted, it's a big number. It's out by long run. It should just enhancing the experience alone
Speaker:should make more people stay. Because again, it's something you can do outside of the coach. You
Speaker:know, a lot of people don't want to learn under the coach because, uh-oh, you know, they're going to
Speaker:identify all the failures. So it's a good like a cheat. I'm going to go out and sneak with my,
Speaker:but you know, my baseline, and the baseline is going to talk to me. I go back and tell the coach,
Speaker:and the coach is going to notice when you start hitting that target a lot more frequently that you
Speaker:are practicing. And if anything that does to get people back on the court to practice is going to
Speaker:help on every level of the game. That's true. That's true. Today is the same thing for Lankone actually.
Speaker:I mean, I mean, there is kind of frightening stats. I don't know. One country in Europe, I think it
Speaker:was friends. I think there was a, in the high 30, 40 percent of the kids dropping off that competitive
Speaker:left, uh, competitive tournaments, or league, they have their because of Lankone process problems.
Speaker:And then so it's not only, uh, uh, in the board's email, it's actually, you're solving an experience
Speaker:problem. They're having bad experience, uh, and trauma and trauma out of tennis that, you know,
Speaker:12, 13 years old because we have bullies on the court and you always will have that's nature of people.
Speaker:And, and you're taking all that tension away, uh, and it makes the whole sport more enjoyable.
Speaker:Just makes it better. Absolutely. So Michael, you said you've got something for our listeners. So
Speaker:I'd love to offer something. One of the things we like to do is say, hey, we got you a deal and that
Speaker:makes our audience really happy because it makes us sound. We guys, and if you're listening, we've
Speaker:strong armed Michael and we said, give us the best deal you got. And he said, absolutely. Um,
Speaker:hey, also after that, I want to hit you with the, uh, King of tennis question so we can find out
Speaker:what you would do if you were King of tennis. So you said you got a deal for our audience. What
Speaker:you got for us today. Yeah. So we're going to, we're going to put, uh, um, a code. That's the way
Speaker:we do it on a website. There is a little, there is a little, um, um, place to put a affiliate code or
Speaker:a discount code just on top of the price. You should type ATP, which has plant that tennis podcast 200.
Speaker:They're going to have 200 dollars discount down it. And that's going to be on for, uh, seven days after
Speaker:you broadcast. Two hundred dollar discount. Have you heard that Bobby? I have a feeling I know where
Speaker:you're going next. Uh, tennis. That's awesome. Michael. We appreciate
Speaker:that because this is, this is the kind of thing we want. We want to start seeing more of, you know,
Speaker:we talk to guys like Ian Westerman. He says, Hey, we need video on the court and why aren't people
Speaker:doing more of this? And sometimes it's cost prohibitive other times. You know what? It's just, I don't
Speaker:really see the value. And we love talking to guys like you because it allows you the expert in this
Speaker:to really explain the value in that long form scenario where somebody really wants to know,
Speaker:Hey, you know what? If I'm going to spend $1800, you're giving us $200 off. I appreciate that.
Speaker:If I'm going to spend $1800 on this thing, I want to hear from the guy. I want him to look me in the
Speaker:eye and tell me that it's going to be worth it. If I'm at a club, can I make my money back?
Speaker:If I'm a traveling coach, can I make it worthwhile? And if I'm a player, oh, man, how nice would it be
Speaker:not to have any more arguments about line calls? I think that's fantastic. And I think maybe it's not
Speaker:always the same where somebody says, Hey, you know what? I've done my King of Tennis thing for the world,
Speaker:or if I could just fix line calls forever. But I do want to ask Michael as our last question always is,
Speaker:if you were King of Tennis and you could change anything or add delete, take it away, put it in,
Speaker:whether it's technology or professional or recreational, whatever it is, anything in the world.
Speaker:Is there anything you would do or change as King of Tennis? I would, I think it's kind of vague,
Speaker:but what I would like to see is official organization embracing technology more easily.
Speaker:I think that would push, again, engagement fun, bring more people,
Speaker:who are, it's always a really long process to get organization on board and, and, and I think that's
Speaker:why I would, that's why I would try to push, making that process really faster.
Speaker:And that sounds, that sounds self-serving, but I know from a, it's not, it's not, so that's what I want you
Speaker:to go for. Go further, because if you have, USDA says we're going technology and we choose
Speaker:baseline vision, obviously that comes across as self-serving, but I know from a values point of view
Speaker:that's not what you mean. No, because that's, that's the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
Speaker:the goal at the beginning even before we founded the company. So it's not a, you know,
Speaker:short term kind of two baseline thing, even though it would be great, but I, but it's not
Speaker:something exactly that. It's really, I mean, the whole game, the whole name of the game was,
Speaker:was at the beginning, making the whole thing better, making tennis for more fair, more engaging,
Speaker:more fun. And, and, and I think that's, that's the, the, the, the, the, the, official organization
Speaker:has, has a big role to play in making tennis, more fair fun and engaging.
Speaker:There we go, fair, fun and engaging, Bobby, write that down. He's going to, Michael's already
Speaker:written down, made the courts be with you, Bobby, we got to remember. Fair, fun engaging.
Speaker:And I think that's going to be my big tagline. Michael, if we could just find that organization,
Speaker:there's, if we do, you know, in the United States, if there was a tennis association that might
Speaker:be interested in doing that. I mean, talking about, you know, the US, I think I think USDA is,
Speaker:is, is doing a lot right now. I mean, I think they're, they're really, they're really,
Speaker:putting, putting effort into, into trying to make that, that, that, that's, that's one good thing.
Speaker:How many do you have it like, no, no right now? How many, sorry? How many, how many base
Speaker:fighters do you have it like, no, no right now in our land out, the USDA headquarters?
Speaker:Well, what I'm saying, would that be the key to me when they adapt it and start using it,
Speaker:then I'll be a bigger fan. All right. How the headquarters is made for that, you know, you could be
Speaker:putting these up and, and it just enhanced the experience of coming to Lake Nona. I you know,
Speaker:I was, I was there two weeks ago, actually, okay, good. In Orlando. And we have, I think, two devices on
Speaker:the way to them. Fantastic. Right now. So, so they're, they're, they're putting a lot of effort into,
Speaker:into, well, that's what I want to hear. That's exactly what I was looking to. I, that's,
Speaker:I mean, you have the perfect facility that they're, you know, spending all this money and they're not
Speaker:getting the return that they wanted. Well, what else can we do to make it where people look at this
Speaker:as, you know, why do I want to go to Lake Nona? And there's a lot of 10, I mean, Atlanta is
Speaker:incredible the amount of tennis. But you even have, you know, the beach getaways that you can draw
Speaker:six hours away. And Lake Nona is probably closer to eight. So a lot of our tennis players don't,
Speaker:you know, that's a Disney trip. That's not a tennis trip. So what is Lake Nona doing to get you to go
Speaker:to Disney and go to Lake Nona rather than go to San Destin or to Van Damier or where, you know,
Speaker:Kia, wherever you're going. And, you know, again, they have the resources where every bell and whistle
Speaker:that is available to tennis should be. Right. And say, look, you know, lead by example.
Speaker:Like you said, I don't want to go use them. I'm going to use it. And then see and say, oh, yeah,
Speaker:I have to have this. Right. They actually did it. I mean, a few years ago, they had, they had a
Speaker:attack solution on on lots of courses, lots of course, they're, I know they're actively always
Speaker:looking for new stuff. I mean, they're specifically doing doing a culture was specifically talking about them.
Speaker:There's a lot of organization out there is a very segmented tennis worldwide, actually.
Speaker:If you look at ITF level or even if you're looking into, inside of Europe, it's very fragmented.
Speaker:And it sometimes makes things a little bit more complicated to get around to.
Speaker:I was talking more generally, I think, specifically for the Orlando Campus, I think they're doing a good job there in looking for new stuff.
Speaker:And with the USDA, I think where Bobby was going with that is we're very much, we'll believe it when we see it.
Speaker:Kind of scenario with the USDA. And yeah, that would be cool.
Speaker:And other than what I'm going to do with you, Michael, is I'm going to follow up because if you're going to get those organizations to embrace technology better, what I want to do is follow up.
Speaker:And the next time I ask you the question, I want you to tell me, "Ow, we're going to get them to do that."
Speaker:Because if we can get that out, then we're getting.
Speaker:Michael, I really appreciate your time. This has been fantastic. We will always follow up.
Speaker:I will put all the information in the show notes and the descriptions.
Speaker:And we'll send it out to make sure everybody knows their code ATP-200 to get $200 off.
Speaker:And we'll see how many baseline vision machines we can get in the Atlanta area. We appreciate it.
Speaker:Thank you so much, Michael. I appreciate your time.
Speaker:Nice meeting you guys. Thanks a lot.
Speaker:Thank you, sir. Have a great day.
Speaker:Well, there you have it. We want to thank reGeovinate.com for use of the studio.
Speaker:And be sure to hit that follow button.
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Speaker:And with that, we're out. See you next time.
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