Learn What it Takes to Get to Top 15 in the World from the Coach of Jack Draper

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In today's episode, Bobby and I talk with Justin Sherring.

Justin was the junior coach of Jack Draper who, as of the publishing of this episode,

is the highest ranked British player and has been ranked as high as 15 in the world.

Have a listen and let us know what you think.

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Do me a favor. Tell me who you are and why do we care?

Um, well, I guess that's up to you whether you care. I'll tell you why I'm here.

I'll tell you why I want to talk to you is because I love this sport. I love our coaching business.

And um, 54 years old, I've been, I tried to play a little bit. I actually tried to play a

little bit in California where my mum lives and my mum's American. So, um, when's the high school

in the valley? Did a bit of junior college down in LAPS and then moved back to the UK because

playing tennis just wasn't really good to do me, but I just couldn't let go of it. But I started

coaching. I loved coaching. I loved, I loved just how you could. It's been more than tennis.

This isn't it. We all know it's a lot more than tennis and how we can sort of change and transform

people's lives. And if you start with some young dudes and they get better and they enjoy

your company, then things things tend to go well. And you build a little reputation and we live in

this very small space in the UK, not like the grand old massive American. I understand that Atlanta

has more courts, I think than any other place in the world. That's the fact that I found out

while I was at the US Open. I was told that by the way. I'm very proud. Um, I'm at Lansing and I guess

I don't know what you call them, but I'm in, in out neck of the woods. Yeah. If you're doing a good

job with some players, then you tend to tend to get quite a nice reputation and you and good players

come your way and then you produce a few good players and and and then it becomes a bit more than just

a job. It becomes your calling and yeah, you have to do it. So you have to do it. I have to do it.

I don't know how you guys feel about it, but I have to coach without it. It's yeah, I'm not a great guy.

No, I need to be out there. I need to be out there sharing stories, transforming lives,

poking a few plays that could do a bit better, um, celebrating guys that are doing really well.

And just yeah, love in life, love in tennis. That is fantastic to hear and Bobby and I are aware of

the calling that it takes, especially to work with beginners to take somebody from from a six-year-old

time frame and sometimes that's what it takes. And you're here specifically because you've got a

relationship with a couple of players that now have some name recognition. Uh, one specifically I was

looking at is uh, Jack Draper who is making a bigger name for himself right now in the uh, in the US

recording, taking the flag a little bit from Andy Murray like somebody to get a chance to step up

and say I'm going to be the next Brit. I'm going to be the guy. Now I've got two questions,

you got a little in between besides the main questions that we send you. It's saying is six foot four

left handed with a two-handed backhand? Is that actually the genetic experience that really that

we're looking for? And in that case, well done on creating that six-year-old when you found it.

Ah, wow. So you know, the cool thing is that I think we did it the right way around and

rolled a little bit to obsessed with, you know, with all these guys it got to be big and we never

knew that Jack was going to be big because he was the smallest guy. He was the smallest guy in all

the pictures. You know, I mean, I coached you guys now. I don't know what they're feeding them,

but I coached you guys now 14-15. They're all way bigger than me. Jack was thankfully 13-14-15.

He was still smaller than me and I got the, you know, the sort of photographs to prove it, but um,

but what he did do was we just had to work on fighting like crazy and because I am a nutty, nutty

UFC and then mixed martial arts and boxing fan and I have been, I watched UFC one guys so let's say

I'll crazy this podcast can get if you want to start asking me questions about Royce Gracie

and and Ken Shamrock. Let's go. But anyway, um, all the guys have worked with a benefit from me saying,

you do know the tennis is like fighting, you do know the tennis is like boxing, you do know that you

have to have the similar sort of skill set and this thing could go to the ground. That means go

to the net. This thing could stay standing up like playing at the back. So all my, all my guys,

my poor guys have had this analogy and when an older player comes and I'm working with a younger player,

they go, oh don't tell me. How's he told you about the fighting stuff yet? Please don't, oh come on,

jazz. When are you going to change your tune? I'm not going to change my tune because this game is brutal.

It's a gladiatorious thought. I mean, you're after-ass stadium 24,000 people. I mean, come on. It's made

for someone like Jack Draper. It's made for him. He's a monster. I think we created a monster. So where

do we, where do we know he was going to be six foot four? We always knew he was going to be lefty. Don't

forget that. So we made sure that he had that swing and serve out wide. And boy, did we practice that?

I mean, that's the one thing you do know that the lefties got that advantage. So please make the most

of it. And he's a crafty guy. He's a crafty guy. He's a little bit like Raffa. He's right-hand dominant,

believe it or not. We had to teach him how to throw a ball. We had to teach him how to, I told him to get

a dog so they could just throw a stick in the part for it to get better at it. So come on, get yourself

a dog. It's the best way to improve your throw. And then he just turned into a monster and he was

beating guys. He was beating older guys, bigger guys would stick him in with 15, 16-year-olds,

10-years-old. And they would, after a few weeks, after initially saying, why have you brought a 10-year-old

kid into our session, I say, after three weeks, they say, please, just, they come up to me quietly and say,

don't put me, don't put me with Jack, all right, it's not good for my confidence. I'm trying to work

on that. So if you don't mind, just, my ankle's a bit sore, don't put me with, I'm like, your heads

are a bit sore, I think that's the problem. And your heart's getting hurt. So listen, we never

knew it was going to be this big. He's dad's big, his brother's big, he's agent, by the way.

So, you know, we kind of, yeah, I guess it was always on the cards, but when you get to 16 and

hasn't grown yet, you still thank God he can fight, thank God he can play a lestie game.

Exactly. Well, and Bobby, is he speaking your language with the fighting? I think the boxing

analogy works for you. Absolutely, Justin. My dad was a long shormon, and probably the last sport he

ever thought his son was going to play was tennis, until we met a tennis instructor who used that

analogy and said it's just like boxing, but he won't get beat up. And I'm still waiting for that

growth spurt. My father's very tall, my mother's Cuban. So I blame it all on her, but

yeah, it was always the hope, but I had to be a fighter too. And that was, you know, very much part of,

you know, the training, the beach, the sit-ups, you know, doing your training was part of our

vernacular was all boxing. And I'm not as much as a mixed martial artist, but I do love boxing. I'm a

sugar ray Leonard Ali guy, when I was way young. So I definitely concur. But I do want to know

what I'm talking about. I read about the lefty. When did you do that? He is a natural right-hander.

When did you guys make that decision? Because somebody, I'll tell you, we always laugh,

and when the mother comes out and says, well, we're not sure if he's lefty or righty, that usually

means he's spastic on both sides. So it must be exciting when the child we don't know, and he turns

out to be superstar like a rougher or a jack draper. Well, I mean, he went to back when,

yeah, back when Jack was like five or six years old, he went to a talent ID day for the LTA, you know,

like the USDA. And they had all these sophisticated tests and all these speed barriers and all these

things that glow and blooming lit up and everything. I mean, all the things that you don't need.

But the one thing you do need is let's see a ball throw and jack through it about as far as anybody

did. And then I shouted down from the balcony, said, yeah, but he's doing that right-handed guys. He's

doing that right- hello. He's doing it right-handed because he was playing his tennis left-handed at that

stage. And then, and the national coach went, hey, Jack, your coach says you're a lefty, he goes,

yeah. And he says, but you're throwing right-handed. He goes, am I doing this sort of realise? And he goes,

and then I said, well, I'll just do it left-handed. Unfortunately, it didn't pan out. The ball went sideways

out of his hand, went on to the next court. And I think me and his mum and dad were just suddenly went,

oh my god, we've got to teach him how to throw. I mean, how many people do you need to teach how to

like properly throw? You can improve the throw and make the mechanics a little better and get the

hand to fire on release, but to actually to actually teach someone to throw who thinks they're doing

quite well, thank you very much for the right hand. And unless you're going to be one of the

gents in boys or one of those, I mean, too much of an outlive at my liking. So we taught him how to throw.

It just meant the forehand and the serve were a little bit funky at times. And we just had to keep an

eye on that throwing and sort of releasing through this plane and releasing through the overhead

plane. But eventually you got it. We just had to do a lot of it.

Well, and in that case, what's the uniqueness there with a player like Jack working with a coach

like you that you are? Say, okay, I'm a special coach because I did this thing. Is there

anything like that or does the player make the coach as some people might say? What's the

uniqueness that says, okay, Justin works with Jack and therefore success. Is there any real formula there?

Yeah, you turn up. You've got a player that's relentless. You've got a player that talks about being

number one in the world. And you've got a coach that says, thank God. Thank God because 99.9% of my

students didn't talk like that, didn't want like that. And 99% of the coaches that he would have

approached at that time didn't want that either. So it's a match made in absolute heaven.

It's a match made. It's the perfect storm for success. And you don't know whether the guy is

going to go on to be top 10 in the world. But I just think that you're going to find a guy that's

going to turn up every session and say, boy, I want this. I really want this. And you turn up as a

coach and say, wow, me too. And you just keep that rolling. And if you're lucky enough, there's

a lot of luck. And I found it with, you know, I worked with Joe's source recently. He was six years

old as well, multiple Grand slam champion. And he's a very different character. It took a little

while for him to sort of pipe up and say, yeah, I really want to do this. You know, Jack's like,

what do you think I'm here for? I'm not here to come second. He was a lot more brash.

But when you recognize that, it's your obligation. You're obliged to put in a shift every

session and it gives you a reason to get out of bed. I don't want to be one of these coaches that

just does, I'm sorry, but I just don't want to be one of these guys that lives their life paying their

bills and just worrying about the mortgage and worrying about how I can earn more money and worrying

about ladies match practice or worrying worrying if more and he's going to have a girl at me today.

Ladies, because because I didn't put her up a group or Derek, Derek's going to have a girl at me

because I didn't get his wife's racket strung on time. I mean, I just don't want to be that coach.

I knew that I knew there was more to it than that. So if there's more to it than that for me,

and Jack says, well, there's more to it for me as well, then we just go boom, and we just let it roll.

And we basically smash it every day, really. So in that case, don't come to Atlanta.

Right now I feel so inconsequential. I can't even get to it. I'm sorry, guys.

You just made Bobby feel like he's wasted his time.

No, but I can't give away my speakers that I get through those moments. That's what I'm biting my

left about. I completely understand what he's saying. There you go. There you go. So as Bobby

that has the coaching uniqueness is what we're realizing, then he can just leave his eyes open.

Wait a minute. He's awake. 100%. Exactly. And so you mentioned Joe and Joe's a fantastic story as

well, because I look at somebody like him and then I have to ask, okay, you've got Jack that goes

one direction. Joe, I don't remember seeing him playing any singles. I maybe I wasn't paying

attention. Maybe was it like the Brian's that they're like, I will give it a shot, but we really

got a great shot over here or the Jensen. You mentioned the Jensen brothers like, hey, you know what?

We're just kind of out here for fun because we happen to be better than everybody. I don't know

what it was that you're where you kind of decide, am I going to jump into doubles? Am I going into

singles? Do you have any insight on what made Joe Joe? I do. I do. And it's called Glangela Fever.

He got Glangela Fever as a kid. He was up there. He was the same level as Jack. He was

played the Orange Bowl, got to the quarterfinals of the Orange Bowl. You know, one of the best kids

in Europe. Really, really, really talented guy. And in terms of pure tennis talent and we can get

into the ins and outs of it. But in terms of just, you know, he can come back from two weeks on holiday,

pick up a racket and find the middle of the strings and like be bouncing it around, tell you all about

his vacation and then you're going, how are you doing that? This is not. I just don't know.

I come back from vacation, get tennis elbow with the first shot I hear. I mean, I'm just looking at

the parents' hope and they haven't seen that. I've just been drinking way too much on my holiday

and hoping I can get rid of this beer belly. But Joe would pick up a racket and just go straight

onto it. Whereas Jack was a bit more normal. He'd have to wheel the ball into the middle of the

strings to start to get going again. So in terms of pure talent, Joe way more pure talent. But then

Memphis, you know, on a scholarship. He was out for a while. He was pretty poorly in second. And luckily

we had a great Davis Cup captain at the time Paul Hutchins and we all rallied around and just

said we really believe in this kid. You know, Memphis, can you, you know, we give him a scholarship

and they did. And we're so grateful that they did. And then he went there and sort of became,

yeah, I don't know what you call it, but he did. I don't know. I don't know what they saw. College

expressions about doubles, but he did pretty well. And he played the Brian, he played the Brian

brothers in fact, the Memphis Open with his, with his sort, I share the traveling with David O'Hare

who gets out on board with him. He was his doubles partner. But really the thing for Joe was,

he'd already, he wanted, he wanted futures title in singles. And he was pretty athletic, but he

just didn't really have any big weapons. He couldn't really, that's a really hit the ball terribly hard.

And it was funny. He had turned up for sessions and he'd tell me what he wanted to do. And I'd say,

doubles court, right? And he'll go, ah, singles. And I go, oh, not this again, not this again.

And then like the week later, I'd say, he'd come up and say, yeah, just about coming forward,

I'm saying great. Okay, so what, where's your positioning there? He goes, why are you positioning me

for a doubles player? I said, doubles, right? He go, no, singles. And I go, please, Joe, please.

And then I remember, I remember he called me up, he's like, just, we got up a chat. And I go,

damn, what is it, man? You sound pretty serious. It's going to be tough. You're going to find

a hard to take. I'm like, break it to me big guy. And he's like, I'm done with singles.

I'm done with singles. And I went, thank God for that.

I'm like, right, can we get on with you? And he's earning some money and winning some trophies.

Like, you don't mind. It's okay. I said, Joe, please. This is great. This is great news.

This is fantastic news. I just don't think my body can really sustain the amount of effort

because the glandular fever stayed in the system. And it sort of showed itself whenever he pushed

himself really hard. So it was a blessing. Glandular fever, however painful and irritating and

annoying and how much it's stunted. He's sort of junior, junior career. What a doubles career.

Six Grand Slam titles, number one in the world. And I hate to talk about it, but it's true.

Enough money that he doesn't have to make decisions about money. He can make other choices.

And he can decide to play tournament, decide not to play tournament. And so, yeah, everything's

worked out okay. So a real blessing because I think he might have, he's a pretty belligerent guy

and works pretty hard. I'm just not sure that he would have had the same success on a singles court.

And I hope if he listens to this, he doesn't come round and have an argument with me about that.

But I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure we should leave the singles to Jack.

And that's a cool way to put it is realizing there's a personality trait in this. And Bobby,

I talk about, you know, is it genetic? Is it, I joke with my son? I've got a two-year-old.

I'm like, all right, you're going to be six foot four left handed with a two-handed backhand.

And this boy is all right handed. But he's we're going to have to make the switch. And he can

throw. He's got all that, right? But you got to make that switch. But does he have that killer instinct?

You know, does he have that the difference that just says, you know, is he the nice kid that might work hard?

Or if he really the kid that he'd rather just kick you than lose to you? And it does, excuse me,

doesn't matter what it would take to win. And some of that is genetic. Some of that is inherent.

And you can coach a little bit of it. You can push that, right? But is there anything,

anything that you can do as a coach and Bobby and I are both coaches. So we get kind of being able to

encourage a child or a player at any level to be able to say, hey, what's the next thing for you?

Is this number one in the world? Or is it just, I want to make the high school team? Or is it just,

hey, we want to get a little bit better and see where it goes? But can we pick out that one kid that

just needs it? That Jack Draper, I'm here to be number one in the world. Yeah. And to be fair, Joe,

Joe is exactly the same. Joe's an absolute game changer. He can make stuff happen against anyone

in the world on a doubles court, which essentially is the more played game in the whole of the world.

And to get to number one and be the best of that, you are a killer. But agreed undoubtedly,

easier for Jack to turn killer on than Joe to turn killer on. I would say that Jack had a killer

and I said, come walk with me in the dark. Come walk with me in the shadow of Sam. Let's go,

let's go. Let's go. It's an easy walk. Easy walk for Jack. If Joe says, if Joe says,

all right, let's, let's go kill. I say, hold on a second. I'm not sure you're ready yet. Let's,

let's hit the bag a little bit longer. Let's get the, let's get the nunchucks out a little bit. Let's do

a little bit work in the backyard. Let's do a bit of Kim both slice before we, before we go walking

in the shadows. So I think you get some personalities that are definitely a bit more ready for it,

probably because they're upbringing. Yeah, I think that's it. And you know, Jack's got an older brother

and luckily Ben beat him up enough to make him really have to fight in the house, which is quite

nice. And his dad's quite alpha as well. Jack's dad's quite alpha and there would have been, he was

the former chief, chief executive, the LTA and yeah, he's, you know, he's very confident guy,

very confident guy like, you know, he was the man and he played tennis really well. In fact,

was quite funny. So I would get, you know, I'd have Jack on court and his mum, his mum did most of

the ball picking up and we had that relationship for 10 years, just all chatting and working out

what was best and then Roger would turn up great big guy six footballers like Clark Kent with a tennis

racket and and I'll tell you, you're hitting in today, Roger. She go, oh yeah, oh yeah, I'm hitting

and Jack's like 11 and 10 and I'm saying, right, we're just going to go easy. I want the contact point.

It's really important. I'm going to take a few videos from the side. We've been working on this

Raj. So don't mess it up. And we're all you can, you can count on me. So we just start nice and

slowly. Yeah, right. First ball in bang. Yeah, because he's got his got his got his boy down the other

end. You started to play some ball and he's like, you're not there yet, boy, not there yet. So after Jack's

sort of complaining of his, you know, sort of rotated cuff started to tear off, you know, right

in front of my very eyes and I'm making contacts even later than the London buses. It's like, I've

said to Roger, Raj, can you, can I'm just going to do a little bit of hand feeding with Jack. So we

can reestablish that contact point. Is that okay? Oh, yeah, no problem. And Roger just sort of walk off

the court, sweating, dripping. His alpha business was done. And I think if that kind of environment is

there, I think you want to be a little bit like that as a kid. You like, and then you stuck in the

environment like at British tennis at the time, you've got Andy Murray, Jack's going into the national

center. You've got Andy Murray on the next court. You've got Dan Evans. You've got Cam Norrie. You've

got these guys that are doing it. And we're on the next court. We're on the next court to Andy training.

You know, when he's sort of doing his Wimbledon stuff, doing his Olympic stuff. I mean, that's

that's pretty nice. And because the country is quite small, you know, we don't have to trail the

left right and center. We've got one national center and Andy's there. So and Tim Henman was just

finishing. And so we had, we had the champions around. I think the Spanish had it for years, didn't

know. The Spanish had it. If you weren't top 50, you were pretty much nowhere near. And the

sweet had it in the 80s. If you weren't top 20, you were, you were pretty much in amateur. So,

you know, so it's just about where your levels are. Yeah, that makes me think, Bobby, you got

me got any killers at your club. I mean, we look at it. You look down. You see that little seven

year old and we see some lessons. You see the kids hitting balls. But there's, for some reason,

there's an energy around that killer personality type, right, Bobby? Oh, there's no quick, and you know,

and it's sports specific as I always laugh, you know, I'm not big. So, but I played baseball from the time

I was seven years old when I was in on a pitcher's mound. I didn't care who got in the box. If they

crowded my home plate, I was taking home playback. Tennis, I had to get angry to get to the levels

that I needed to do. So, you know, there's not just, you know, does it transfer? Did you have the

good enough experience? So, that's I think where the coaching comes in and the environment comes in.

There's so many things, but yes, I left. Good ball. Terry finally acknowledges later in his career.

I'm looking for one thing, your killer. I want the most competitive kid out there that's bleeding,

that wants this more than anything because I can teach him every, it's my job to teach him

everything else. The hardest thing to do is to make somebody a killer. And I think that was

Rocky Fives, too, you know, with Tommy Morrison. He could give the fighter everything, but he couldn't

give him his heart. So, you know, it's well played out in sports, but it's life, too. And that is the thing I

said, just watching, getting ready for today, watching Jack last night. I was like, oh, this kid likes

the stage. And after reading about him being right handed, I looked at, I said, you know,

"Rafa, you could tell was right handed." You know, he didn't get full extension, but the serve was

a little bit more of a muscle. Jack gets great extension on that serve. And, you know, I was surprised

when I read, he was, you know, right handed dominant this morning. So, they obviously did a lot of work.

He enjoyed it because that's another role of the coach, right? We got to make it fun where they come

back because if they're not having fun, they're not coming back. They're not outgifted, they are.

So, you know, there's a lot of things that we do. But I do think killer is something that is

completely underappreciated because coaches think, oh, I can do it. Yeah, it's tough. You get a lot of

that. Look at Zavero for God's sake. I mean, what is everybody lost if there was ever a tournament he was

going to win if this was it? And, you know, he didn't get there. So, and I just think he's nice or

whatever it is. There's something, it's just not that thing. He doesn't have it.

And Bobby, that makes me think, again, Justin mentioned the Jensen's, it makes me think, well,

Luke Jensen said, he's like, I can take this guy. I just get over there and just mangle him like,

geez, the physical guy, I can just take this guy. I'm like, but you got to beat him on a tennis court.

So, there's a different skill set there. Of course, they're just taking a guy out back and beating him

up, which evidently both Jensen thought they were always capable of. But that's a little bit of that,

er, I'm going to go get you. I'm going to take this from you because you have what I want. And it's

this point. And to be able to have that mentality, is there a something specific that a coach can do

when he finds that player. A lot of coaches, I think, are sitting around waiting on the great player,

thinking they're a great coach, just kind of being patient. You mentioned luck earlier, Justin.

Is there a bit of waiting and just hoping that player shows up? Are you in a situation where you

get to see a lot of those? You mentioned the LTA and Jack's father. Are you in a coaching scenario with

a major academy where you have access to an elite player where you say Jack showed up at five or six

years old to a talent spot. He already knew how to play tennis by the time you met him. Bobby and

I are meeting five and six year olds that can hardly walk and they haven't heard of tennis. So, we're

trying to talk them into liking it. It's a little bit different feeling. So, do you have to be a great

coach in a good situation at the right time? Is that part of the luck?

It is, but you also need to be influenced by Bobby said, "My superhero is an egg voluntary.

It's my superhero. I mean, the greatest coach that I've ever come across.

I'm hell bent on tennis. All I do is to work all the time. My wife said to me, I need to pray.

You need to holiday 20 years ago. Over 20 years ago. I said, "Well, you book it. You book it."

I said, "Okay, fair enough." She goes, "No tennis. I said, "No tennis. Okay, fine." I swear in the evening,

she comes back home. She comes back home in the evening. She goes, "Yepie, I booked it." I said,

"Come on, then what will be going?" She goes, "We're going to Florida." I'm like, "No way, Florida."

And I'm starting to think, "Well, we're about to Florida, babe." And she's like, "Play, you never

heard of it. Play school, Braden, Braden, to try." And I went, I said, "And I promised this

is the true story." And I went, and I kept it in. I went, "No way." I said, she goes, "Look at these

white beaches. Aren't they beautiful? It's a sleepy little town. I can't see a tennis court

inside." It looks like, it looks like Brighton. And I went, "Absolutely." It looks like Brighton.

Absolutely. Well, tell you what, tell you what's really funny. We got there. I said, "Why

do you settle down? Why don't you unpack?" I'm just going to have a little cruise. Point eight

of a mile away. I was at IMT. Nick Bonetern, he's a cat. So I literally went to the gauge. I couldn't

get there quick enough. And I bluffed my way in. And I ended up on a guy, red. You know, red, a big,

famous coach that's at IMG, big red beard. He was the killer coach. Oh my god, he was the killer.

So I managed to get in because he had been working with a British player,

called Heather Watson. Of course, you know, Heather. And I said, "I know Heather. And I've come here

to see Heather. Well, he's on Red School. So I went to Red School. Red Heather wasn't there, but Red

said. And I also said, "I knew Red. That was the funny thing. I was like, hell, bent on getting in that

place." So then I said, "I got to Red School." And he said, "Do I know you?" Because he's a pretty tough

guy. And I went, "Red, London, Wimbledon. You don't remember?" And he went, "Oh, yeah, god,

sorry, man. I must have forgotten." I'm like, "Damn." I said, "Where's Nick?" He goes, "Oh, next

coaching at the indoor court." And I went, "Right." And he said, "I'm finishing up here. You want me to

take you over there?" I went, "Would you mind? It'll be great to see him again." And I completely

bluffed my way to the indoor court at IMG. I mean, I went there enough times later on with the

Eddie Herron and the Orange Bowl. But when I met Nick Volotary, I seen all these videos. I seen

all these speeches, this guy's from the army, this guy's a warrior. My favorite play on drag

is see, I mean, you know, those two fell out. I know that. But it stays within your system. It stays

within your soul. So every time you spend time with a player, whether they're young, whether

old, I get people turn up at my place, please, can you coach my kid? I've got a bit of

ballad theory on me. I'm thinking, "Right. Let's have a little look here. My first feed goes on the

next court. My first feed." And if they don't chase it, I go, "I don't say next, but I can't go,

look, here's what we got to learn." So we go person first, character first. And I did that with

Joe and I did it with Jack. It was harder, a little bit harder with Joe at times. But if you go

character first, and then you can teach the other stuff. So I really believe, once you capture them,

once you connect with them, and once you find that you're on the same level, if someone doesn't turn

up again, then that's fine. I'll just hunt the next player. I'm not sure I'm going to wait for

the next player. I'm going to be hunting the next player because I like to and are living and I like to

are living with the good vibrations on the court and with that intensity. So, and I think if people know

that you're about that, they come and find you as well. Again, small country, I honestly, literally,

guys, since Jack's down well and Joe's down well, I have people calling me saying, "Look, I know,

I know you're probably not going to take him, but can you have a look?" I'm like, "Well, I'll have a look."

And then I say, "Yeah, you're probably right. I won't take. I don't have time. You quickly don't have time.

But if you got, I'm actually working with a couple of girls right now because I'm really trying to

get better at coaching girls because I think it's different. You still need them to be killers.

And you can't just say, "I need you to be like, "East on your little bingo. I need you to fight like

blazing monster. If they haven't got it." But then it's almost like you just need to say,

"Okay, it's okay to bring that level, bring that intensity." And I probably feed a little bit

tougher to the girls now that I do with the guys. So it's like a little journey from it, 54 to try and get.

I worked with Johanna Conte for a year. That was more to build her confidence. She was at a low

point, like 200, trying to break through. And I think we did a nice job by quite

like to work with a player like 12 or 13 and 14 and try and build that same character that I think

I've done okay with the guys. But Nick Bolitairery, Rocky 1, Rocky 2, Rocky 3, Rocky 4, Rocky 5.

You know, you can probably keep Rocky 5 and then it gets a little bit crazy. But for me, Rocky 3,

you get Rocky 3 out and off you go. That's interesting. Just recently in another recording, Rocky 4

came up. So it seems to be the Rocky week for me specifically. And I love it. So what's the,

do you have anything specific? Because I know you're here because we're promoting CoachLife.com.

So you are one of the coaches that is offering content on their platform where people go in,

grab a membership, and you're one of the coaches there because of some of that, as you say, the name

recognition. Some of that have said, hey, I've had some success and Joe is proof. And Jack is proof. And

in that case, there's a little bit of that where then people always suddenly want to listen. Then

all of a sudden the calls are coming in. You don't have to do so much hunting is just catching. You're

just allowing the people to come to you. And you've got some good stuff out there. One of them,

and I'll throw it in. It isn't necessarily a question, but it's a really cool thing that I saw

that you're quoted as saying, let players play their way. And recently I heard the phrase of

doing something effectively versus doing something properly. And I really liked that because we would

have an example of a Medvedev or Rafa or those that would do something maybe effective. They're

going to do it effectively, but it isn't what you would teach. You know, I'm not necessarily also

going to say don't do it like Medvedev because that guy will do whatever it takes to get the ball

to go wherever he wants it to go. But is there anything special that you wanted to be part of this

CoachLife.com system to share to be able to say, hey, this is maybe what I've learned over my

20, 30 years of coaching. And what I know now that I didn't know then, do you have anything like that

that you'd want to share? Yeah, and I suppose, you know, the word I was thinking of that was just

unconventional and we need unconventional. We need unconventional. We can't conformity isn't

going to cut it. So, and I think the more you get to know the player and the more you understand,

I do a lot of coach education in the UK and I'm a little bit different from the other coaches because

I don't really talk about forehands and backhands. I really don't. I talk more about how to get

players engaged at a level where they show enough interest that everything else in their life

or be a family becomes tennis is like, this is critical to me. I need this. So because we need it.

And if you can sell that to a player, chatting to a player in Azerbaijan the other night,

if dad said, look, can you chat to me? He's like, keeps flunking out all these third sets and,

you know, after an hour on the phone, I said, the dad, look, they'll be getting away. He said,

get anywhere. The guy hasn't stopped writing. The guy has not stopped writing since he got off the

phone and I didn't tell him to write anything. I said, I suggested that it might be really nice to

start keeping notes about how he feels. So, when we talk, I can show him some tips about how to

thought stop a little bit, how to stop criticizing yourself, how to accept a little bit more that

you're not going to win every point that you, hey, the best thing you can do a full one down is to say,

I accept losing a full one. It's okay. So go scare someone else. Go scare someone else.

Whoever's around me, whoever's in my head, because I don't care about full one. I care about getting

better. I care about getting better. And I think you can sell that to a lot more kids than we do.

Because kids will turn, they might not turn around explicitly and say, thank God, because I'm so

out come focused. I need to be more process focused. I need to be bouncing the ball three times. I

need to be locked into my actions. I need to, no, no, no, just say, I don't care if you lose. But I want

you to win this and then tell them what is that you want them to win. I want you to use tournaments

as if they're training and I mean that. And if you dare start texting me and say, guess what,

just like one, I won't reply. I won't reply because you've broken the rules. You message me and then

these little guys, they end up messaging me so much. And I'm like, I'm going to get off the phone.

I'm like, Jesus, did you win? Did you win? Did you tell me? Oh, but if that's what you believe in.

And you can probably feel that I get a little bit excited about this. But I passionately feel about

progression, play development. But I don't think coaches go deep enough with it. And they might sell

out a little bit early because they've got parents and every all the coach had I do, parents,

parents. What about civil to parents? What about civil to parents? I, but what if their parent doesn't

agree? I said, well, what are you doing? Depends, oh, we don't let the parents anywhere near the court.

I said, well, wrong. I let my parents on the court picking the balls up, get to know them. If they're

cheap, get rid of them. If they're stinking the court out, get rid of them. It's not going to work.

Not going to work. But you at least get a chance to tell them how you think, share with them how you

think, talk to the player in front of the parent, talk to the player in front of the player. I'm not scared

of those conversations because I'm not going to waste my time. I'm not going to waste the kids time.

I'm not going to waste my money. I don't need your money. I want, I want joy. I want excitement.

I want a purpose. And it's not going to come from just some transaction that we're going to have for an

hour. I want to go on a journey. If you want to come on a journey with me, then it's going to be deep

and you're going to improve. And I mean that. I don't know if you're going to get your ranking where you

want it, but you're going to improve by hook up by crook, because we're going to make the most of the

time that we spend together. So I think you need to impress that pretty deeply and meaningfully. And I

think that looking back and I think that's what I have with players that come into my contact.

I said, are you ready? Are you ready for this relationship that you're going to have with me? This is

going to be deep and we're going to go, we're going, we're going. I will want developmental talk the

whole time. If a mum and dad talk about results in front of me, I said, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

you're breaking rules now. So he might not have tried last match, but you're not trying very hard

right now. So let me just keep it light, but they know that they know that if I get a bit annoyed,

then I'll just say, see ya. I'm off. You know, so I think most people get on board and they want to do

they want to be part of something more than just a win. More than just a, I want to go my rating up,

I've got my ranking up. They want to be more than that. Jack always wanted more. Listen to the way it

talks. Yeah, I'm playing well. There's more in the tank. There's more in there's more in there. Joe

obsessed with playing better with playing better. And I think that's the environment that I'm pretty

sure that we created the whole time. Bobby, I'm in. I'm going to fly over to the tank. I'm taking

lessons myself. Like you sold me on this and my son's just going to have to wait. Get in line, kid.

Bobby, you got anything more for Justin before I hit him with King of tennis? No, I've enjoyed

it Justin. Thank you. And I think Sean just to be clear outside of Luke, I think this is the first

person I've ever seen his name mentioned in like Wikipedia. So I was really excited. Thank you Justin.

Absolutely. Pleasure. Nice to see you, Bobby. Thank you. Thank you.

And so Justin, last question we always have. Always love the answer. I am curious if you were

King of tennis. So whether it was for the UK, for the world, anywhere, if we were made King of

tennis, then you could change or do anything. Is there anything you would change or do?

What would I do? Do you know what I'd love to say? I'd love to see. I'd love to have you see

this crazy thing in. I'm not sure if it's changing the game itself, but I might have a little side hustle.

I might do it. They do this thing in Europe. And it's just comes to me where they box for around.

They played chess for five minutes. And then they get back in the boxing ring. Yeah, I would love to

see. I'd love to see like a time break. A ten, a seven point time break. Then you then you then you

run off. You get your gloves. You get your gloves on. You've got 30 seconds. Just going at it,

going at it almost in like a phone booth in like a phone box. Just absolutely spat you into.

And so whatever state you're left in, you then have to go back on the court, play another

tie break. Then you have to come out. And because you've got an American audience as well, we can then

have a little grapple. We can then have a little wrestle, a bit of NCAA wrestling. Get on a bit of

Greco stuff. Get on there. I'm talking nonsense. Don't know anything about wrestling. We don't do it.

But anyway, you can have a quick wriggle around. Put those leotards on. Put those head things on.

I like the ones where you get each other's bits and bobs all hanging upside down on each other.

I love all that wrestling. And then you've got to get back on the court again. And so

I think it would put tennis in perspective, wouldn't it? It would be like, I'm worried about tennis.

I'm not worried about tennis. I'm worried about the wrestling. I'm worried about getting sucked

in the face in about five minutes. So that's easy. I don't know. I think it might be entertaining.

You know, all the things that are out there now, I think there must be like an influence

so that would be positive that.

So Bobby, isn't that the, I just won the tiebreaker. And that was my plan. And now my plan is to win

the next one. But the plan goes out the window when I get punched in the face, isn't that it?

That will you. When you take your own blood, it's a whole not all the training in the world goes right

out the window. I know. So I hate to be I hate to just be boring because I'm sure everyone said

that same answer. I said, sorry. Yeah. Combo tennis boxing wrestling. I'll admit Justin. That's the first.

I was concerned about the chess in tennis because that was so much a part of, but you know,

when we were at the club, we were, when we weren't on the court, we were made to play chess.

So we would learn strategy and the fact that we just won. So I was, I was all over that. But I didn't

see the boxing coming. That's great. There you go. We can, we can work on it, guys. We can work on it.

Put it together. Well, Justin, I appreciate your time. Thank you so much. And good luck to

finding the next great player. I mean, I think it sounds like you're in a good position for that.

And it sounds like I've checked out some of what you've got on coachlife.com. And it's really great.

We will have all of the affiliate links and everything associated with that in the show notes.

And we'll let everybody know because you've got your specific affiliate link that allows us to

promote you on coachlife.com. There's some really great content there. And I will add all that in

to make sure everybody knows about it and where they can get more from you. So Justin sharing.

I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Bobby is always great job. And we will talk to you again.

Maybe someday we'll follow up and find out who's next in the pipe.

And we love to do the tennis capitol of the world. The extra come visit.

I would love to do that. Maybe we can maybe we can have a little pilot run of

boxing tennis and chess. That would be great. That would work.

Sounds good. Thank you, Justin. I appreciate you. Thank you so much.

Well, there you have it. We want to thank reGeovinate.com for use of the studio

and signature tennis for their support. And be sure to hit that follow button.

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